On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

[TVV]

I just came across a photo from the Military Museum in Barcelona, which shows an interesting display, featuring two of the mysterious "Berber" sabres and some other weapons, one of which is an espada ancha and the other one is a sword associated with Brazil, if I rememebr correctly.

Does this grouping provide further evidence that those so-called Berber sabres are actually a Spanish Colonial weapon, which comes from the Americas, instead of from the Maghreb as previously believed?

[ariel]

I have mentioned once that , while visiting Versailles, I saw a big oil painting in the Palace, depicting a battle between the French and the Arabs. In the right lower corner there was a figure of a Berber wielding the classical "berber" sabre, with a reverse point and a peculiar handle similar to what you show ( ## 2 and 3 from above in the grouping).
Regretfully, I did not have a camera with me but if any of you go there, please be better prepared:-)
Spain had colonies in N. Africa at the same time and waged war against the same Berbers as the French did. I am not surprised they lumped all the spoils of war in a single pile.

[Andrew]

I'm always wary of assigning too much import to what anonymous museum curators put together in a given exhibit. Too often I think someone took a bunch of things they thought would look good together and put them all in a case... :shrug:

[TVV]

Well, I have one of those sabres with the inscription "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos", which suggests a Caribbean, rather than a North African origin. And I remember that Jim has mentioned that these usually appear in groupings of weapons from Central America and Cuba.
I guess, unless we see a picture of someone wielding such a sabre, we will never know for certain.
I would prefer those to turn out to be from North Africa, but I am finding myself leaning entirely towards the New World.
Regards,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for posting this Teodor!!! The subject of these weapons has often been a topic over many years and remains, along with others, somewhat unresolved. Tirri suggests these sabres are of Spanish Morocco regions, and when these first came into the collecting community nearing two decades ago, they were typically represented as Berber and of regions of the Rif.
The blades seem to invariably have had the curiously profiled tip, that was usually on a British M1796 light cavalry sabre blade. The guardless grip of course recalls the similar form of the eastern cousins of these, the flyssa of the Kabyles and contiguous Berber groups.
On these blades I have seen markings that suggest Spanish provenance, and after the Napoleonic campaigns in the Peninsula, there were considerable numbers of these British blades present that could easily have been sent to Spanish colonies in Morocco. There were also considerable numbers of the British patterns sent to Portugal.

Of further note, is that many of these sabres have turned up in groupings of Spanish colonial weapons, in Mexican collections, and there are suggestions of these being of Cuban and provenance to the America's. I would point out that the shellguard weapon at the top is of a form recently discovered to be an interesting amalgam of espada ancha and these types of sabres, now revealed to be the Brazilian form of these weapons. Note the niche at the top of the grip reflecting this characteristic in the well known Moroccan sa'if known as 'nimcha'.

I have seen suggestions of even associations with the decor of these sabres
to Indonesian and possibly Phillipine archipelagos, which may be supported by the trade and colonial routes of Spain.

Ariel, excellent note on that painting reflecting presence of these swords in use! I would love to see that painting, and as you well point out, Spain and France both had profound presence in these regions. I think one of the most puzzling factors concerning these 'Berber sabres' is that they are notably absent from all the comprehensive collections and resources on the arms of Morocco or North Africa. Charles Buttin, the highly esteemed collector and authority of weapons of the end of the 19th century and into the 20th has no example of these in his incredibly comprehensive catalog, nor are these seen in Holstein, Alain, Moser or other prominent collections.

There is the mystery...why? and we really need to reach the museums of Morocco and others in these regions to see if provenanced examples can be found.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

I'm always wary of assigning too much import to what anonymous museum curators put together in a given exhibit. Too often I think someone took a bunch of things they thought would look good together and put them all in a case... :shrug:

Very well said Andrew!!
I have seen groupings of weapons lumped together completely incongruently by presumably responsible authorities, resulting in many of the unfortunate attributions that have plagued arms scholars for years. Case in point, the Calvert catalog "Spanish Arms and Armour" which perputuates these types of errors in a number of instances, especially the curious 'manople'.
Burton, in his "Book of the Sword" carries forth errors of Auguste Demmin (1877) and finally noted by Buttin in his work later published (1933).

The trophies/souveniers of one generation, often become grouped in estate sales by unknowledgable individuals and presumption, and classifications and provenance hopelessly lost. I have seen donations to European museums that piled African and even Asian weapons together, mostly in efforts at aesthetic or unusual groupings, leading more to identification travesties.

All the best,
Jim

[Dmitry]

I don't have this sword any more, as I have traded it for another piece just a few days ago, but the hilt is quite like the one on the top photo.
I also have another one, also quite similar in style, which I am very fond of, even though this is not my bag.

[Jim McDougall]

I don't have this sword any more, as I have traded it for another piece just a few days ago, but the hilt is quite like the one on the top photo.
I also have another one, also quite similar in style, which I am very fond of, even though this is not my bag.

Thank you Dmitry, great photos. As indicated in my earlier post these have been determined to be Brazilian from probably earlier part of 19th century. I have one of these which has a British blade of about this period, again leaning toward the entrance of these British blades onto Spanish trade sphere. It seems earlier research also has suggested a number of these unusual weapons are included in the relatively obscure armouries of these parts of the America's and Caribbean.

I have always hoped for North Africa too Teodor, but remain somewhat appeased by the fact that the trade connections between the Spanish colonies in North Africa and the America's are the denominator that seems to link these unusual weapons.

All best regards,
Jim

[pallas]

i saw one for sale that was exactly like examples 2 and 3 in the first picture that was labeled a "corsican cavalry saber"......very strange....it had the "manuel" marks on it too...

[Jim McDougall]

i saw one for sale that was exactly like examples 2 and 3 in the first picture that was labeled a "corsican cavalry saber"......very strange....it had the "manuel" marks on it too...

Pallas, now I remember that post! How completely strange to have that attribution and I wonder how they arrived at it?
Interesting , the blade on the one I referenced had the obscured stamped name (?) manu...suggesting manuel?

It seems that in Armi Bianchi Italiene I once found a blade with similarly profiled tip.....more mystery. Why would they duplicate a blade tip from Renaissance Italy ?

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

i saw one for sale that was exactly like examples 2 and 3 in the first picture that was labeled a "corsican cavalry saber"......very strange....it had the "manuel" marks on it too...

Pallas, now I remember that post! How completely strange to have that attribution and I wonder how they arrived at it?
Interesting , the blade on the one I referenced had the obscured stamped name (?) manu...suggesting manuel?

It seems that in Armi Bianchi Italiene I once found a blade with similarly profiled tip.....more mystery. Why would they duplicate a blade tip from Renaissance Italy ?

All best regards,
Jim

[pallas]

yes, the blade had "manuel" stamped or etched where the ricasso should have been (from what i remember, the blade dident have a ricasso) it also had a layer of rust on it

[Jim McDougall]

yes, the blade had "manuel" stamped or etched where the ricasso should have been (from what i remember, the blade dident have a ricasso) it also had a layer of rust on it

That was the exact location on my example.

[Dmitry]

Jim, what is the substantiation of attributing these pieces to Brazil?
{quote}

Dmitry,
I'll have to get out my notes, but there were some Spanish text articles as well as one of these sold with Imperial Auctions, identified and with Brazilian inscriptions on blade. I believe discussions with Juan Perez (?) as well...during espada ancha research when suggestions were made to a South American cousin to the northern frontier examples.

Do you have an interest in these? If you have other information I would really be interested to know, in the meantime I'll look into notes here.

all the best,
Jim

sorry I hit edit instead of respond.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Dmitry,
Actually I have been researching Spanish colonial for many years, and sometimes it seems it has taken forever to finally break through with some of these weapons which remain anomalies in collections.

One of these shellguard espadas was among holdings of Imperial Auctions in 2008 I believe. My notes show that the blade was inscribed with the Imperial monogram and crest of Emperor Pedro II of Brazil (r.1831-1889). The hilt with the nock (cf. nimcha grip) the striated shellguard, and inner langet are virtually identical.

Years ago I was researching one of the strange munitions or blacksmith grade swords with exaggerated finger stalls, a reversed nock in the grip, which was cast brass, and an added espada ancha style shellguard and knuckleguard similar to this style but much smaller. I had been informed it had been found in Monterrey, Mexico, but found little to substantiate. Later examples were seen, also shown as Mexican, but in discussions with Pierce Chamberlain, he insisted these were from Cuba. Years later he called me and sent me photos of one from Spanish American war brought back from Cuba.

An article, "Machetes del Ejercito de Ultramar en Cuba y Puerto Rico" by Juan L. Calvo (Sept. 2006) shows one of these fabricated in Toledo in 1856 but attributed to Cuba as 'de Guanabacoa'. I believe subsequent discussions revealed that this referred to a location in Cuba if I recall.
While the first example shown has a coat of arms on the shell, another not in the article, but identical otherwise, has the same striations on its shellguard seen on these 'Brazilian' examples.

Another espada I researched, and looking for photos, has a shellguard with the same striations, but the guard is flat and perpandicular to blade, and the identical inner langet. The overall guard appears more in line with the espada ancha developed from early hangers, and the sword was represented as from the eastern Spanish colonies (Florida possibly Cuba), believed of probably late 18th century.

It seems that the striated patterns on these Spanish colonial shellguards occur from latter 18th, well into the 19th on these various forms of espada used in various ports of call on the Spanish Main of this period.
As always, more research to be done, but these are the results of well over twenty years done so far.

All best regards,
Jim

[Dmitry]

An article, "Machetes del Ejercito de Ultramar en Cuba y Puerto Rico" by Juan L. Calvo (Sept. 2006) shows one of these fabricated in Toledo in 1856 but attributed to Cuba as 'de Guanabacoa'. I believe subsequent discussions revealed that this referred to a location in Cuba if I recall.


Jim, I am still not sold on the Brazilian attribution; some photos would be nice to see. I've read Juan Calvo's article on the Guanabacoa and other machetes, and saw, but was too slow to buy, a wonderful example at a gun show a couple of years back. It was of similar construction as the ones in Calvo's article, except the hilt was done in sterling silver with mother of pearland gold incrustations. It was a really high end piece.

Here are the photos of the one I have in my collection. Even though, like I said, it's not my area of collecting, this particular piece just oozes Colonial Latn America, and is very expressive, so it's on my wall for now. I have not been successful in finding anything on the blade-maker Breffit in my literature. Could be an Englishman who set up shop in Havana [or Rio, for that matter].

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Dmitry,
I agree on specifying Brazil for the type overall based on one example with sound provenance, but I think it must be accepted that these striated shellguards are of Spanish attribution in locations included in its trade centers in the Caribbean, Florida, Central America and South America. I will see if I can get the photos of the Brazilian example to post.

Thanks for the photos of yours, one of the nicer examples I've seen, great motif. The name of the maker on mine was 'Isaac' I think, cant recall now but definitely British and was not found in British registers either. These guys may well have been importers of blades in these areas?

All best regards,
Jim

[TVV]

Back to the topic of the mystery sabres, this one finished today on eBay. Hoepfully the buyer is someone from this forum:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160355041148&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

From the pictrues and the description, there appears to be a letter M on the hilt and the base of the blade, which I guess would be unusual for a Berber, wouldn't it?

Regards,
Teodor

[Rick]

The scabbard appears to be very un-Spanish IMHO . :shrug:
I can't think of a use for the terminal end ;it seems more tribally oriented . :confused:

[Jim McDougall]

The scabbard on these are very unusual, and the perpandicular projection is very much like the shotel scabbards seen in Spring. I am unclear on the purpose of the projection, and this seems atypical for anything in the Moroccan regions of North Africa, but the scabbard style seems consistant.

I have seen the 'South Seas'; Indonesian and Caribbean suggestions along with the standing 'Berber' attribution, which remains unsubstantiated.
As I have mentioned many times over the years, I have yet to see these represented in any collective material on weapons of Morocco and North Africa...it is as if they came out of nowhere!

Why the 'Ethiopian' (?) style scabbard, what is the upright extension at the tip for, why are the blades always profiled in this manner, what is the stylized 'flyssa'(?) type grip supposed to represent.

In my opinion, the 'Spanish Main' of the 19th century, and its trade routes that continued through the independence of Mexico from Spain, The Mexican-American War, and into the period of the Spanish American War, account for a myriad of the mysterious weapons that have been appearing in collections in recent times. Many of these are 'bringbacks' from the Spanish American War.
The 'Main' was prevalent in early 19th century in the Caribbean, Florida, Cuba, Mexico's gulf ports, Central America and South America....the outermost extension, the Philippines. To the East, the connections to Spain and its North African colonies are of course part of this vast network.

Most of these unusual weapons I have seen seem to have either Mexican provenance as far as appearing in groups of these weapons, or as items stated with Cuban or South American provenance.
I have often considered that it would be most tempting to suggest this unusual profile to the tip of these British or European military blades reminds me of the tip of the kampilan, free association at best, but still, seems plausible.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jeff D]

From the pictrues and the description, there appears to be a letter M on the hilt and the base of the blade, which I guess would be unusual for a Berber, wouldn't it?

Regards,
Teodor

Hi Teodor,

Could the letters seen be part of the 'Spanish Motto'?

Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Teodor,

Could the letters seen be part of the 'Spanish Motto'?

Jeff


Whoa! Jeff you are amazing!!! Thats gotta be it, fits perfect as far as I can see. Never even thought of that, so once again the Spanish colonial presence is suggested.

All the best,
Jim

[Wodimi]

only a thought.......the Berber at the north coast of Morocco once are well known as formidable Riff pirates. For me this sword is a perfect pirate cutlass. Not so long as a Flyssa or Nimcha, which would not work in a close combat. Also perfect to cut ropes and last not least very similar to other pirate swords. I have also one of such swords and in my records I wrote "Riff Berber".
The last Riff pirates are massacred in 1898 by troops of the Sultan from Morocco.

Wolf

www.spearcollector.com

[TVV]

Hi Teodor,

Could the letters seen be part of the 'Spanish Motto'?

Jeff

Jeff,
I thought I saw the same thing, as there seems to be an O before the M, which fits nicely with the motto. Without having the sword at hand, I can only agree that this is most likely traces from the popular Spanish motto.
By now, there is plenty of evidence which suggests that these sabres are indeed Spanish colonial weapons, but as Jim keep pointing out, Spain had a lot of colonies.
I am uploading the auction pictures here for future reference.
Thank you Jeff, Jim and Wolf,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

only a thought.......the Berber at the north coast of Morocco once are well known as formidable Riff pirates. For me this sword is a perfect pirate cutlass. Not so long as a Flyssa or Nimcha, which would not work in a close combat. Also perfect to cut ropes and last not least very similar to other pirate swords. I have also one of such swords and in my records I wrote "Riff Berber".
The last Riff pirates are massacred in 1898 by troops of the Sultan from Morocco.

Wolf

www.spearcollector.com

Exactly Wolf, thats what these were once thought to be about when I got mine back c. 1995, and the Rif was the attribution. However as these began to turn up over the years, no substantiation for this could be found. I think what did it for me was a discussion with several colleagues, including Dominique Buttin (whose Grandfather Charles lived in Morocco, and whose weapon collections from these regions are quite comprehensive), and the consensus seemed to agree likely Spanish colonial regions.

Actually, these heavy blades and the guardless hilts, as well as the opening which may well be for lanyard or sword knot, seem to lend well to the idea of machetes, which were a utility weapon prevalent in many of the colonies.
The Spanish colonial espada ancha (= wide heavy blade) in Mexico's frontiers eventually developed into a machete type weapon as well, in areas of heavy desert vegetation. In northern regions of plains it became more of a hunting/Bowie knife.

It also would be hard to imagine that these might not have appealed to the famed Barbary Pirates in certain cases, as they were certainly present in those days of the Spanish Main, just as you have noted Wolf.

All best regards,
Jim

[pallas]

i found another picture of the "corsican cavalry saber" and "manuel deje" was the entire inscription etched on the ricasso.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Pallas! I wonder if the 'deje' is a term , does not seem like a name or it would be capitalized right?
Any Spanish translators out there that can help?

Best regards,
Jim

[TVV]

Here are some more pictures of the sword, which I have been lucky enough to acquire. These swords are on the shorter side, and this particular one is quite light as well, especially compared to my other mystery/berber sabre.
Now, onto the identification.
The blade most certainly has NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON - worn off a bit, but still there. Interestingly, the second part of the popular Spanish motto is missing - it is not on the other side of the blade, just nowhere to be found.
The cloth baldric has faded, so I doubt anyone would be able to use it to point to the sword's origin.
The scabbard is of a peculiar construction - instead of two symmetric wooden halves, it has just one, from the decorated side. The side, which would press against the body has been left undecorated. Does anyone recognize the scabbard decoration?
Finally, it is a full tang construction, kind of like a machete. There is file work on the spine of the tang, which reminds me of something - I think of the brass spacers on the hilt of an Albacete dagger?
Hopefully, the pictures will help someone to come up with an idea based on the various elements and their decoration. Given how I now have two of these sabres with Spanish mottos, have I inadvertently crossed into Spanish colonial weapons?
Best regards,
Teodor

[Gonzalo G]

Interesting speculations. As I recall, Jim, when I identified that hilt as belonging to a Machete de Guanabacoa and refered to the article from José Luis Calvó, I did not mention that the machete were from Toledo. It must be pointed that the spanish mottos do not imply a spanish manofacture of the blade, but a spanish colonial presence. José Luis Calvó very clearly states that those blades used in the machetes of Guanabacoa were originally made in Germany and USA with spanish inscriptions, and latter they were made in Toledo as a reglamentary weapons of the spanish colonial army, but I think they were mounted probably in Cuba anyway. Guanabacoa is a village near from La Habana, with a strong african presence those days. This ethnic element is the common feature among this hilts discussed here, since this type of sabres are characterized mainly by the hilt, though there can be found blades with a reverse tip. It must be mentioned that the african presence is also strong in Brazil, a lot more than the spanish commerce in that ex-portuguese colony in the 19th Century.

But there are some distinctive differences among the above swords. One of them, very obvious, is the presence or absence of a guard, the latter a feature alien to the spanish swords. My own speculation: those swords were made with european blades, but not exclusively, and mounted with handles in a style which has a strong african flavor. The presence of spanish mottos could mean blades imported from or taken to the spanish. Other blades in the same type of swords, or customized variations in the blades and hilts (in the machetes of Guanabacoa, for example), could mean personal preferences or availability of blades from a specific origin. The same style of weapon can have blades from different origins, customized or not latter by the owner. The important thing here is the style of hilt with it´s guard, and in the case of the so called berber swords, the presence of the reverse point, which must be explained in terms of style or in terms of availability of specific blades with this characteristic. I believe the sword from Teodor has an european blade with a history, but it came in some way to non european hands and mounted or remounted in the actual style. It could be made for the American market and at the end not sold, used or exported there, but elsewhere. The spanish inscription does not mean a spanish manofacture.

Ariel´s reference is important. It gives the first substancial proof that the sword is, or could more probably be, north african. Another point: the machete of Guanabacoa is a reglamentary spanish military weapon. There is no evidence that the´berber sword´is. This brings me the idea that the latter is an opportunistic use of whatever available sabre blade mounted in a special local style, not specifically ´colonial´, but during the colonial wars.

Regards
Gonzalo G

[TVV]

Interesting points, Gonzalo, thank you for your response. I was hoping you will chime in, as your expertise on Central American and Spanish colonial weapons in general could be very helpful here.

If I understand your post correctly, you are saying that these swords, known until recently as "berber" due to a Tirri attribution, are not regimental. I fully agree, as they vary considerably in their shape and size. You also point out the African flavor of the hilt and scabbard decoration, which I also agree with, and this is not surprising considering the large African population in many of the New World colonies, especially in the Carribean.

I am wondering, could these sabres simply be sabres preferred by irregulars in the Spanish army, mostly of African descent, from the Carribean? My other sword with its motto obviously referring to the Dominican Republic would support this.

As for guard vs. no guard, I am not sure that the lack of a guard is necessarily unknown in Spanish long bladed weapons. For example, here is a Spanish colonial sword/machete from the sold section of Oriental Arms (I hope Artzi would not mind using his pictures as an example):

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3052

Note the similarities in hilt construction and the pointed tip.

Now, the Riffian sword in the Versailles painting is most intriguing, and I have no doubt that Ariel knew what he saw. However, a painting is a work of art, and I would prefer to see a picture of Riffian warriors with such swords, before I am convinced that this is indeed a Riffian weapon.

Regards,
Teodor

[M ELEY]

Dmitry, I love your Brazilian (until proven otherwise!) cutlass. It is similar, but superior to my example. Not to divert the subject away from the Berber sabers, but as far as the Brazilian goes, I don't think there is much question that they aren't at least Spanish colonial if not specific to the Brazilian region.

Jim, I had also seen that saber with Pedro II's coat-of-arms. It was spot-on. The only thing was the timeline...later period than I would have suspected, but then again, many of the Spanish broadswords were used over many centuries. I tried to track it down again to no avail.

Dmitry's sword has that distinctive snake design on the finial we've discussed before on espada. I just saw a nice espada for sale on a website with the same pattern, but because it was an active sale, I didn't list it here (I am assuming a sale item and an active auction are considered the same??).

The Brazil sabers seem to have two distinct types of blades- straight (or nearly straight) and the classic curved type. I'm wondering what these swords were ultimately used for? Horseman's sabers? Cutlass in the many coastal ports? The pattern obviously was repeated, yet not a "model" used by any military or militia, apparently. Not trying to offend anyone, but I'm having trouble envisioning anyone riding around in the jungle or pampas on horseback with these strapped to their side. True, horseman's sabers could be rather large, but the guard seems more cutlass-like (what, me biased :D ).
The folded stirrup on these seems to indicate one worn on the side, like the smaller espada. So...was it like an infantry-type sword? I'm just struggling trying to imagine HOW the sword was put to use in this environment if not as the classic ship-board pattern.

Teodor, you started this great topic (thank you!) with a picture of the sabers in Barcelona. I'm curious what that museum listed all these swords (the Brazil sword (?), the Berber sabers (?) and espada) as in their collection? Do you know? Thanks.

[TVV]

Teodor, you started this great topic (thank you!) with a picture of the sabers in Barcelona. I'm curious what that museum listed all these swords (the Brazil sword (?), the Berber sabers (?) and espada) as in their collection? Do you know? Thanks.

The picture was made by a friend of mine, who visited the Military Museum in Montjuic a year ago - I just noticed it recently among all the rest of the pictures. Unfortunately, he has not made any pictures of labels. :shrug:

I will be going to Barcelona in a month. Unfortunately, I read that the museum was closed permanently in May of this year. Part of the collection may have been transferred to Girona, and if true, I will try to visit there as well, as I am also very curious to see how these swords are identified.

If one of the Spanish members is reading this, please let me know where all the weapons from the Barcelona Military Museum are to be found now.

Best regards,
Teodor

[Marc]

Well, I have to check, but IIRC the collection was indeed supposedly set to be moved to the Figueres Castle (in the province of Girona, but not in Girona city itself, just to clarify), bit I think it's still far from being actually on display there.
I'll confirm before you leave, though. :)

Best,

Marc

[TVV]

Well, I have to check, but IIRC the collection was indeed supposedly set to be moved to the Figueres Castle (in the province of Girona, but not in Girona city itself, just to clarify), bit I think it's still far from being actually on display there.
I'll confirm before you leave, though. :)

Best,

Marc

Thanks a lot Marc.

[Gonzalo G]

Continuing with my post in home and not knowing if somebody made a response to my comments meanwhile, I would like to add some more
commentaries. First, the fact that Morocco was not a colony until the
20th Century. Of course, there were wars and temporal occupation of
some ports by spanish and portuguese. In the 15th Century the portuguese occupied four ports and the spanish one, but were defeated and expelled latter. The war of 1859-60 against Spain ended with a treaty by which the sultan of Morocco gave to the spaniards the coastal area in the north of the country. It was a war to spoil Morocco of the ports, not to colonize it, in the same way that Gibraltar is not a colony, but a military post. The Rif berbers were not subjugated until the decade of 1930´s (with great loses to the spaniards).

So, of what colonial weapons are we talking about when refering to the
berbers? To beging with, what is a colonial weapon? The answer seems
obvious, but is not. Anytime I see this concept (colonial weapon), is
associated with european colonization. Which seems to be another
ethnocentric misunderstanding. Why never a yataghan from Greece or the Balkans is called 'colonial'? Colonialism is not a phenomenon exclusive of the capitalist countries, as feudal Portugal and Spain demonstrates. And so the historians writte of greek or carthaginean colonies in Europe. This is not off-topic, since the concept must be clarified, as it is taken in loan from the social sciences and sometimes used too liberally.

I understand as colonial weapons, those made by the colonial powers,
specifically in the colonies, by the colonial settlers or by the 'natives' undertheir direction. Or made exclusively for colonial uses. This does not include the weapons not made specifically in this way, as the colonial powere manofactured their weapons in the metropolis for purposes not exusively or specifically related with the colonies, but with their general military needs. Brazil (remember the 'brazilian' sword?), is independent since 1822, and Spain had a little presence there, if any, since that was an area under the influence of the Great Britain, and before, a portuguese colony which was not allowed to commerce with anybody but Portugal. America had not ports of call, for the spaniards, except Cuba, since around 1820-22,
including the Dominicana Republic. The blade on the berber sabre from Teodor was made after the independence of this country from Spain,
which give us a time span for this weapon. The machete of Guanabacoa is another history.

The weapons made by the 'natives' using 'trade blades', or blades taken in war from the colonial enemy, are not 'colonial', in the same way the saifs made with 'trade blades' from the persians are not 'colonial', nor the firangis from India are.

Would it be causal that the european (most probably) painter whose work was mentioned by Ariel represented the berber sabre ALSO confused with an american sword? Not likely. Too much distance and the relative ignorance in Europe about the late evolution of the american weapons, makes it very unprobable (such a coincidence!). I think the swords from the spanish museum and the painting in Versailles are enough proof, since the curators also can be right about how to classify a sword, mainly if they are from a country which colonized the berber area of the Rif (well, on the other side, this is not a garantee, in this case). Those are hard evidences dreserving to be taked on account.

I insist. As there were european influences, so there were african influences over all the countries which enslaved african people. When they were taken, they came to stay, with all the cultural and racial implications this carries. Republica Dominicana and Haiti are in the same little island, only divided by a political frontier. Their culture is strongly black. Papa Doc used the vodoo to dominate his people in Haiti just decades ago. Also this are the cases of Cuba and Brazil. Berbers surely had also decorative influences from the territories to their south. And they were also enslavers and slave traders. Mutual influences could perfectly be developed. We know a just a few from them, as far as I can see.
Regards

Gonzalo G

[Gonzalo G]

As for guard vs. no guard, I am not sure that the lack of a guard is necessarily unknown in Spanish long bladed weapons. For example, here is a Spanish colonial sword/machete from the sold section of Oriental Arms (I hope Artzi would not mind using his pictures as an example):

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3052

Note the similarities in hilt construction and the pointed tip.

I just saw your post, Teodor. Yes, you have a point. I don´t ignore this features in the machete of Guanabacoa. You can see more like this here:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/34-Ultramar.pdf

Anyway, the history and details related with this weapon are not really known. Checking the manofacture of the blades, since I wrotte from memory my first post, shows the presence of Toledo blades on this machetes from the beginning. They could be used as blade of opportunity, or manofactured purposedly for this model, we don´t know. You have to take on account, also, that this machetes were not developed as weapons, but mainly as tools due to the dense vegetation on the island of Cuba. Maybe this is another factor to take on account in order to explain the absence of a guard. But I think this is not the case of the berber sabres, which clearly are a cavalry weapon used mainly fight.

Still, the absence of a guard is not a common feature in the spanish swords and this machete is precisely a proof of the validity of my arguments, though I can be mistaken. I believe this kind of weapon-tool was developed for the units called "Pardos" (because of their brown color, as they were blacks and half breed), but not exclusively, though the type of decoration which can be found in some blades seems very...un-spanish. As it can be understood, this machetes were originally designed and developed in Cuba, and apoved by the local authorities in the 1850´s decade, and latter adopted officially by the spanish army overseas in the 1890´s decade. I think the design originally has a strong african flavor, and at some point a guard was added in some variants. So, the construction of the handle and the absence of guard are not characteristically spanish.

Please check the spanish military weapons, and hardly you will find a machete (or any other sword) without guard and with this construction (if any). If you don´t understand spanish, there are plenty of illustrations in the articles from José Luis Calvó. You can save them and study the models of spanish military weapons which appear in this articles in PDF. At least, you will understand the name of the models and the dates.


On the other side, I am not expert in anything related with swords, just a student. But I studied history, and I like to relate swords, technology and history (including economic history or history of the economy) as different faces of the same phenomenon.

Please excuse my mistakes, but I am always is a hurry due lack of time online.
Regards

Gonzalo

[TVV]

Gonzalo,

All excellent points, as usual. I agree that the term "colonial" may have been used too freely here, something of which I am certainly guilty of.

I still do not see how a Balkan yataghan could be a colonial weapon though, because a colony implies a settlement or territory divided from the mother state by an obstacle, natural or other. The Ottoman Empire was contiguous, and its Balkan possessions under imemdiate control and access from the capital of Istanbul. I really do not see any similarities to the Spanish Empire here - maybe Tunis would have been a better analogy.

Another thing I need to point out is that in my opinion, the short length of these sabers, similar to that of a cutlass, would not make them great cavalry weapons. To me they seem much better suited for fighting on foot, or maybe even intended for a naval use.

I agree with the rest of your points. However, after re-reading your posts, I am still not sure what is your take on the origins of these sabres. I am sure you must have a hypothesis of your own, but to me it remains unclear.

Best regards and thank you for your participation,
Teodor

[Marc]

Well, I confirmed it.
Right now, the collection is not on display anywhere. After being taken off its former location in Montjuïc Castle it was put in storage, and there remains. Institutions and particulars have been reclaiming the items that were in deposit, and a relocation of what remains of the collection in Figueres will have to wait for quite extensive (and so far without funds) reformations in the new location.
In short, the collection of Barcelona's Military Museum in Montjuïc is no more. And will hardly be again. :(

[TVV]

Well, I confirmed it.
Right now, the collection is not on display anywhere. After being taken off its former location in Montjuïc Castle it was put in storage, and there remains. Institutions and particulars have been reclaiming the items that were in deposit, and a relocation of what remains of the collection in Figueres will have to wait for quite extensive (and so far without funds) reformations in the new location.
In short, the collection of Barcelona's Military Museum in Montjuïc is no more. And will hardly be again. :(

Sad news indeed, Marc. Are there any arms and armor related museums in Barcelona that I should visit?
Thank you very much for confirming that the Barcelona Miliatry Museum is closed, so that I can plan my vacation properly.
Best regards,
Teodor

[Gonzalo G]

Teodor, the term ´colonial´seems to be very laxus. The greek and cartaghinean colonies were only cities established as commercial settlements. They were nearer from the metropili than the balkans from Istambul, or at least there were similar distances. The idea of settlements established by a conqueror in other continent, is similar, since Africa and the Balkans are not in the same continent as the Ottoman metropoli. But in all case, I was not intending a precise comparison, it was just a reference.

Maybe I passed without looking the dimensions of those sabres. In some way the description from Ariel evoked to me, in my quick reading, a cavalry-like image, but it was my mistake. This is the reason why I feel important to know the exact measures of the weapons exposed in this forum, and also the weight, point of balance, thickness, geometry of the blade, etc.

In relation with the sabre: my feeling is that those sabre were made, among others, with european blades, and with the references form the spanish and french museums, I am inclined to think that the best hypothesis, in view of the available evidences, is that those sabres were more probably north african. I can add no more, since all the references I can find in internet point in this direction. I have not bibliography over the subject, but as soon I have more information I will writte to you.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Marc]

Sad news indeed, Marc. Are there any arms and armor related museums in Barcelona that I should visit?
Uh.... no. Not really. Nothing really worth going out of your way just for the weapons themselves. To be sincere, Barcelona has a lot of unique and wonderful places to visit, including a lot of excellent museums. My reccomendation is that you enjoy your visit and wait to go elsewhere (Madrid, for example) to see remarkable arms and armour collections (specially european).

On the other hand, aside from the most usual touristic routes, if you happen to have some spare time, you might want to try the Ethnological Museum (http://w3.bcn.es/XMLServeis/XMLHomeLinkPl/0,4022,656966449_674234318_3,00.html) or even the the Maritime Museum (http://www.mmb.cat/default.asp?idApartado=103&idIdioma=3), out of curiosity, if you like the subject (a 1:1 scale reproduction of a 16th c. galley, anyone? :) ).

[TVV]

Another example with interesting inscriptions in Spanish ended on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=270730142550&si=axZmIsOyI%252FZ3hZHixx724D3eJkI%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

On one side the inscription is "Para Los Valientes ____enos", as opposed to "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos" on one of mine. On the other is what looks like a regimental marking - can someone read and decipher it? If this sword can be ascribed to a military unit, then that would likely provide a conclusive answer on who used these interesting swords. In any case, the Berber attribution seems more and more unlikely.

I am attaching some pictures from the auction.

Regards,
Teodor

[carlos]

I have seen another sword like this, with the words Para Los valientes Cibaenos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cibao
and on the other II HYD VT IA PTO PLATA. This is the link, with this PC I can,t copy the pictures, sorry.http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=180636232306&si=jJcRNs3%252BBjolDvPBJpETm64xEqg%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDWX%3AIT
best regards
carlos

[TVV]

In an effort to bring yet another angle to the origin discussion of these swords, I am posting a comparison between the file work on the back of the tang on one of my "Berber" swords, and the hilt of an Albacete dagger, taken by Marcus back in 2006 while the Barcelona Military Museum still existed. The motif is similar.

Regards,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for posting that Teodor! another intriguing element that compels the Spanish colonial aspects of these swords, though suggesting thier origins may indeed have been in Spains colonies in the Maghreb before diffusion abroad.
While in discussions of earlier years I had also considered the absence of these sabres in Charles Buttin's works. I am wondering if perhaps because they seem to have been situated in regions farther west from the French areas he was of course in, maybe he did not encounter these and they were not enough in presence by then to have been largely noticeable. I would presume that by the time of his residency in Morocco these would have already become diffused to the west.
The fact that these sabres seem to be almost invariably identified in groupings in Latin America and other Spanish ports of call does not necessarily mean that thier origins could not have indeed been in Moroccan regions, the Tirri references being the instance supporting this.

[TVV]

Jim,

How reliable is Tirri as a reference? I am sure he is correct about many attributions, but then, according to his book, we should still be looking for the laz bicagi in Egypt. We have to be careful not to propagate false information.

Regards,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Teodor you know you and I are very much on the same page regarding the Tirri 'references', and who can forget the BSY drama! :) However as with most of these kinds of books, subsequent research and findings can often either further refute or sometimes support entries . In the case of these sabres I personally have not held to Tirri's classification, but as with many cases there is a wide scope of qualification and things can often be in gray areas.
Overall the larger balance of his attributions are reliable, and very much so considering those who consulted in preparation of the book, however it seems the major problem is the lack of cited references and sources.

I definitely agree, that we as students of arms history should not propogate false information, but continue research to properly balance information at hand. If these are indeed with the origins in Morocco then we need to properly acknowledge that with new findings, but frankly at this point the jury is still out.
Conversely, with the Laz Bicagi case, a classic example of revision, reminding us to recheck data used from many of the references we consult. I once read "...the thing I like most about history, is how its always changing!".
:)

All the best,
JIm

[ariel]

Can't find my copy of Spring's book on african weapons.
But the scabbard of the "berber" one has the same protrusion at the end as the ethiopian ones. Yes, Berbers are not Ethiopians, but heck of a lot closer to them geographically than the Brazilians:-)

[Jim McDougall]

That was something that I noticed as well when I first got one of these 'Berber' sabres back in the early 1990s, and could not figure out why those examples shown in Spring as Ethiopian had the same type protrusions. I think that discussions some years ago also suggested that the 'thum' type extension on khanjhar scabbards and from Algerian regions some of the koummya scabbards was considered possible in influence.

Again, aside from Spring, other references on Ethiopian edged weapons do not include these type sabres, and as far as I know most of the varying shotel scabbards (excluding Spring) do not have these protrusions.

[ariel]

The pic I showed is not from Spring. BTW, I found my copy of Spring:-) and can photo the examples from it for general reference.
These protrusions may be infrequent on the Ethiopian scabbards, but they do exist. I know of no other examples of weapons that share such a feature. We cannot ignore it as a potential evidence of the "berber" sabres belonging to Africa rather than S. America

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks, I knew this example was not from Spring, and it is really an interesting anomaly as far as I can see. I had not seen swords with the S guard in this context. It would be great to have the examples from Spring shown here to illustrate what we're discussing for the readers.

I agree that these factors are pressing for a North African presence of these distinctly hilted and scabbarded sabres. Another sword discussion which may have some oblique bearing on this conundrum does recall another item in the Tirri reference which had disputed provenance, the so called 'Zanzibar sword'. This is the baselard (H shape hilt) form smallsword which was identified as a 'Zanzibar' sword in Burton (1884). I found that this exact and apparant misidentification was lifted directly from Demmin (1877) right down to the line drawing, and subsequently found that Buttin (1933) had classified these as Moroccan s'boula. In his footnotes he cites the Burton/Demmin 'error' .

What was most interesting was that Tirri had an example of one of these exact swords with Amharic inscription and I found an example of one of these among Ethiopian weapons in "Weapons of Africa" (Lindert, 1964) a small pamphlet.

These elements suggest the strong ties via trade route networking which existed transcontinentally, and pronounced presence of Moroccan weapons as far as Zanzibar, which would of course include Berber forms in cases. These networks included of course routes through Ethiopian points, and may explain the presence of s'boula in Zanzibar and Ethiopia...as well as conversely these scabbards with distinct vertical protrusion (resembling the Arab influence suggested) being in Ethiopian and Berber contexts.

I would point out as I have throught the years the interesting case of the Manding sabres which have cylindrical hilts compellingly similar to the Omani kattara, yet they occur in distant Saharan context far from Omani contact...except through possible trade presence from Zanzibar, which was of course an Omani Sultanate as well as powerful trade entrepot. Of further note is again the scabbards, which carry the flared tip characteristic of the kaskara, and revealing probable diffusion westward in these trade routes.

While these notes are concerning other sword forms, they seem pertinant to the study of these Berber sabres and thier likely origins and development, which seems to favor North African Berber regions at this point.
As I have once again brought Buttin into the discussion, it seems a bit contrary to suggest that these sabres cannot have been among Moroccan weapons as they do not appear in Buttin...while noting that the 'Zanzibar' swords are in fact Moroccan because they DO appear in his reference.

It is clear that more support is needed for those weapons' origin as well as continuing viable research on the 'Berber' sabres. As Teodor has well noted, many misperceptions have been perpetuated with the use of material from earlier references without further study and evidence. I think that is why we are here:).

[ariel]

Here they are: Ethiopian Gurades from Spring's book.
Do they remind us of something? :-)

[ariel]

I would venture to say that scabbards ( at least in this case) are more important determinants: blades traveled, scabbards were locally made and reflected local traditions.
My vote for North Africa.

[TVV]

The protrusion is indeed quite similar. There are other swords with scabbard protrusions, like for example Taiwanese aboriginal knives, but those scabbards tend to be wood, not leather. The tips on Ethiopian gurades bear the closest resemblance to the tips on Berber cutlasses.

I am not sure we can settle attributions by a matter of voting :) . Personally, I do not even know how to vote, as I can see the following possibilities:

1. A North African sword from areas close to the Spanish colonial holdings: North Morocco or Spanish Sahara (or Spanish Guinea?). The Spanish mottos can be explained as a result of no alternative sources of blades. We know that colonial powers tried to limit access to weapons for the local population in controlled and neighboring areas, or it may simply be a matter of restricting trade to merchants and goods from the respective Metropole. If that hypothesis is true, it may explain why we see almost exclusively Spanish blades on these swords, and mostly French blades on Mandingo sabers, in areas not too far.

2. A Caribbean weapon, which combines features from the diverse demographic composition of the Spanish colonies in Central America. By the 19th century, the population in the Spanish part of Hispaniola was of mixed Spanish, African and Amerindian descent. This may explain why the inscriptions refer to this particular island, while the decoration, which varies from simple geometric patterns to complex floral designs, is so eclectic.

3. A private purchase, non-standard issue weapon of Spanish officers and/or soldiers or sailors, who saw service in various parts of the Empire.

I am sure others may come up with further possibilities. In the end, I am afraid we will need photographic evidence to resolve the mystery conclusively, assuming of course that the use of these cutlasses does not predate photography.

Regards,
Teodor

[M ELEY]

Excellent points, Teodor.

I, myself, wasn't trying to imply that the Berber sabers were of Brazilian or Spanish origin. It was just a question of who influenced whom. I agree that the blades don't define the piece, as all areas discussed had trade blades present. I have no doubt the scabbard on the Berbers come from that region, or at least from the African northern provinces stretching to Morocco.

The question for me remains with the hilt. We see Brazilian and Cuban swords with these distinct and fascinating shapes that are so similar to the ninchas and saifs. All the pieces discussed frequently have the same types of inlay concentric circles and wavy lines. The time periods when we start seeing Berber sabers, Brazilian cutlass and the Cuban examples with the odd hilts all seem to be post 1800. I'm just still trying to make a connection, but perhaps am seeing more than is really there? :shrug: The Brazilian cutlass hilt resemble a throw-back to the old Houndslow swords of the 17th century and look nothing like the hilts on other espada ancha. The mystery continues...

[TVV]

I was fortunate enough to visit Madrid this week and just yesterday took the train to Toledo, where the Spanish National Military History Museum is now located. Among all the exhibits there is a single sword of the type discussed in this thread, identified as originating from the Dominican Republic from the mid 19th century.

This is just the latest in a series of evidence, all pointing to the Dominican Republic. Museums are known to make mistakes, but my impression from the Museo del Ejercito was that the items there were for the most part very accurately researched and identified. There were displays to the wars fought in Morocco both in Toledo and in the Museo Naval in Madrid, and neither contained these machetes, but contained the typical Maghrebi saifs and muskets instead, along with koumayas and flyssas.

Personally, I am now of the opinion that these short sabres or machetes are entirely Dominican in origin, and any occurence in a North African context may have been purely incidental.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Teodor, thank you!!!!
It is so great when these older threads are brought up with new data, and finally we can put this one to rest. I agree the Museo del Ejercito has as far as I have known always had well placed research, and it seems that the Caribbean attribution to these has also been consistant.

Sounds like a fantastic trip, and thank you again for sharing this.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Teodor, thank you!!!!
It is so great when these older threads are brought up with new data, and finally we can put this one to rest. I agree the Museo del Ejercito has as far as I have known always had well placed research, and it seems that the Caribbean attribution to these has also been consistant.

Sounds like a fantastic trip, and thank you again for sharing this.

All the best,
Jim

[archer]

I just noticed a mention on the third page of Faganarms,Inc. Spring 2014 catalog a Berber Back sword listed with the mention that the Kabyle Berbers fought for the French in Mexico in the 1850s. Perhaps, this is partially how and why they were connected. Steve

[Masich]

Here are two more examples of probable Spanish Colonial swords with notched horn grips and "shell" guards. One appears to be a horseman's saber with a curved, full length blade bearing the familiar "No me saques sin razon" inscription and panoply with floral flourish. The other has a heavier, shorter more cutlass-like blade.
The shell guards should, it seems to me, really be classified as a Peacock motif. The uniqueness of this design, when combined with the distinctive notched grip, may well be a clue to the origin of these swords.
Pierce Chamberlain told me the "No me saques..." sword pictured here is likely from Mexico but agreed that it exhibits Caribbean influence--but that, of course, covers a pretty broad area.The Brazilian connection (attributed to the peacock motif guard on the previously-posted sword seen on the gray background) is intriguing. Has anyone discovered more attributed specimens of this style? Are there any additional theories on the provenance of these enigmatic pieces?

Andy Masich

[ariel]

Never thought to see this thread resurrected :-)))

Jut as an afterthought to my remark from 2013(!!!), see post #53: blades do travel.

Here is my nimcha ( or saif for the purists), typical North African work, but the blade is marked "Nueva Granada 1845". Nueva Granada is, AFAIK, Colombia/Panama these days:-)

Was the blade made there and transported to Spanish Sahara?

[Jim McDougall]

Here are two more examples of probable Spanish Colonial swords with notched horn grips and "shell" guards. One appears to be a horseman's saber with a curved, full length blade bearing the familiar "No me saques sin razon" inscription and panoply with floral flourish. The other has a heavier, shorter more cutlass-like blade.
The shell guards should, it seems to me, really be classified as a Peacock motif. The uniqueness of this design, when combined with the distinctive notched grip, may well be a clue to the origin of these swords.
Pierce Chamberlain told me the "No me saques..." sword pictured here is likely from Mexico but agreed that it exhibits Caribbean influence--but that, of course, covers a pretty broad area.The Brazilian connection (attributed to the peacock motif guard on the previously-posted sword seen on the gray background) is intriguing. Has anyone discovered more attributed specimens of this style? Are there any additional theories on the provenance of these enigmatic pieces?

Andy Masich

Andy, when did you talk with Pierce??

[Masich]

I last spoke to Pierce about a month ago. He and Sid Brinckerhoff hired me as a curator at the Arizona Historical Society more than 30 years ago. Though I've moved far from the Southwest, I still love Spanish colonial and Mexican history.
I am eager to learn more about these distinctive "Brazilian" swords, though I agree with you that this attribution may be too restrictive for a form that may be more appropriately called Caribbean.
Any further thoughts on the Peacock connection?

Andy Masich

[machinist]

Perhaps it may be based on an Ocellated Turkey native to the Yucatan region rather than a Peacock, the eyes on the feather seem similar to the decorations of the shell guard.

[Masich]

Perhaps it may be based on an Ocellated Turkey native to the Yucatan region rather than a Peacock, the eyes on the feather seem similar to the decorations of the shell guard.
This is a brilliant supposition! Surely you are correct--the guards all have two rows of "eyes" neatly arranged within the fan-like striations. Others, including me, who saw peacocks were all "fowled up." I'm going to start looking at Yucatan native and folk traditions.
Andy Masich
PS It makes me wonder if any of these guards may have been painted when new--can you imagine staring down a blade with all those eyes looking back at you?
PPS These turkeys in my backyard inspired me to write the peacock post in this thread in the first place--I didn't realize that these birds (or their Yucatan cousins) might have actually been the original inspiration for these sword guards.

[Masich]

Perhaps it may be based on an Ocellated Turkey native to the Yucatan region rather than a Peacock, the eyes on the feather seem similar to the decorations of the shell guard.

I may be going off half "cocked" on a wild turkey chase, but if this hypothesis is correct, it could be historically significant. The ocellated turkey lives only in a 130,000 km2 (50,000 sq mi) range in the Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico—which includes all or part the states of Quintana Roo, Campeche, Yucatán, Tabasco, and Chiapas—as well as the northern parts of Belize and Guatemala. This may have been the point of origin for this guard design. The grip my have North African roots with a Spanish connection to the New World. It's also still possible that the Portuguese brought the form with captive Africans to Brazil and the general sword form may have spread from there northward to Central America, where the shell guard morphed into the turkey form seen on the guards posted.
It interesting that the Spanish were impressed with the ocellated turkeys that the natives had domesticated for their feathers for nearly 1,000 years and, later, for meat. So taken with the birds, the conquistadores exported breeding pairs back to Europe.

Andy Masich

[machinist]

It would be nice to think a piece of this puzzle is close to solved, but the answer may be for awhile "it's complicated".
The Caribbean that produced these was a rich mix indeed. I guess it is time to look at the picture collections again and hope to see a turkeys wattle or snood ;)

[Jim McDougall]

After spending quite a bit of time rereading this thread, which clearly represents some of the most fascinating discussions we have had here through the years, it is tremendously exciting to have it revived after several years by this innovative suggestion by Andy.

It is a most astute observation and suggestion that the shell guard hilt of these apparently Central and South American swords may well be representing the peacock, or as remarkably well noted by Machinist, the Yucatan turkey. These observations present a unique opportunity to potentially assign this apparent anomaly in the widely known 'shell' type motif on guards to a specific region.
In the study of ethnographic weapons, the presence of distinct representation of something key to a region as with these birds, which is a most compelling suggestion and well worthy of more research !

The example shown by Andy is distinct in having the decorative features related to the 'eyes' in the 'plumage' as well as the head nestled against the 'plumage' and more avian appearance. It seems the other example shown earlier in this discussion has the appendage which stylistically resembles a 'head' in the same position, but not with the other 'plumage' features.
Perhaps this might be a stylized or figurative rendition of what we hope might have been a locally embellished form from Yucatan and environs.

We know that these 'shells' as guards on this type of espada from Central and South American regions typically are of the simpler striated scallop shell style, much as have existed in variation in Spanish swords from earlier times. I personally believe that the Brazilian example with the cypher of Pedro II, r, 1831-1889, is likely to have been 'from' these shell types rather than a Brazilian form inspiring them.
The key thing with the Brazilian attribution is attributing these to the more southern regions of Spain's American colonies. The hanger type espada ancha was of course established to the north and frontier regions of America's Southwest.

I hope we mighty continue looking into the compelling avian character of this unique hilt as posted by Andy, and perhaps more support for the adoption of the shell style into possibly peacock or turkey plumage as well as the embellishment using the bird head.

Thank you again Andy for posting this and the remarkably compelling suggestion!!! :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, I find it most compelling with the attribution of Peacock feather decoration in the hilt....The note that Kabyl Berber involvement in Mexico is further fascinating.. and overall that the sword ( possibly derived from Iberian style) and its derivatives sketch a web of involvement wrapped around Spanish global activity from the Manila Galleons and grasping at Zanzibar and Moroccan/Algerian styles. The fact that Spanish ships also entered and exited the Indian Ocean via the Cape of Good Hope as well as via the Atlantic Acapulco Filipies run shows how diverse the designs of regional styles became... not to mention a similar sword on the waist of a captain of the Trained Bands of London pictured in Islamic arms and Armour by the late Antony North. (Tobias Blose; Captain.)

This is a very revealing thread !! :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Rick]

Agree, it's nice to see this thread resurface.

What has always puzzled me is the purpose of re-profiling the point of some of these blades into a sort of clipper ship bow shape. :confused:
What would be the function of this configuration?

Maybe I missed that from the previous posts. :o

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Agree, it's nice to see this thread resurface.

What has always puzzled me is the purpose of re-profiling the point of some of these blades into a sort of clipper ship bow shape. :confused:
What would be the function of this configuration?

Maybe I missed that from the previous posts. :o


This is a good question which appears to have the answer built around its apparent ability at cutting ships ropes...whilst retaining some degree of thrust ability by retaining the stiffened tip... a lethal combination. What is also puzzling is that the hilt seems to have migrated across many trade routes...Spanish?... but the blade changes...in some cases long despite its misnomer Nimcha (half blade in Baluch)...in some cases short but in no cases to my knowledge do we see this clipped bow shape tip in the Indian Ocean styles...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

After spending quite a bit of time rereading this thread, which clearly represents some of the most fascinating discussions we have had here through the years, it is tremendously exciting to have it revived after several years by this innovative suggestion by Andy.

It is a most astute observation and suggestion that the shell guard hilt of these apparently Central and South American swords may well be representing the peacock, or as remarkably well noted by Machinist, the Yucatan turkey. These observations present a unique opportunity to potentially assign this apparent anomaly in the widely known 'shell' type motif on guards to a specific region.
In the study of ethnographic weapons, the presence of distinct representation of something key to a region as with these birds, which is a most compelling suggestion and well worthy of more research !

The example shown by Andy is distinct in having the decorative features related to the 'eyes' in the 'plumage' as well as the head nestled against the 'plumage' and more avian appearance. It seems the other example shown earlier in this discussion has the appendage which stylistically resembles a 'head' in the same position, but not with the other 'plumage' features.
Perhaps this might be a stylized or figurative rendition of what we hope might have been a locally embellished form from Yucatan and environs.

We know that these 'shells' as guards on this type of espada from Central and South American regions typically are of the simpler striated scallop shell style, much as have existed in variation in Spanish swords from earlier times. I personally believe that the Brazilian example with the cypher of Pedro II, r, 1831-1889, is likely to have been 'from' these shell types rather than a Brazilian form inspiring them.
The key thing with the Brazilian attribution is attributing these to the more southern regions of Spain's American colonies. The hanger type espada ancha was of course established to the north and frontier regions of America's Southwest.

I hope we mighty continue looking into the compelling avian character of this unique hilt as posted by Andy, and perhaps more support for the adoption of the shell style into possibly peacock or turkey plumage as well as the embellishment using the bird head.

Thank you again Andy for posting this and the remarkably compelling suggestion!!! :)

Salaams Jim, Thank you for your remarks ... This must be a sword type with the widest and most diverse of all the swords ... I note the -potential Iberian link in this weapon and how it has morphed across the globe following centuries of Spanish trade, exploration and war. I note with interest how a peacock design could well be responsible for the cruder form shown in South American types from earlier Spanish form as you note..and discovered an even more compelling design on Espadas Ropera...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, With a number of threads with related themes I have chosen this one as the more focussed on the subject of these weapons to launch a querry on the links between form...between Moroccan and Zanzibari and indeed between the style that sems to have developed in the Americas particularly around the Caribbean carried there by war and trade not least between Spain and the Philipines via Accupulco etc...
My first observation is combined with a quite early time scale... That of the trained bands of London; ...A sword on the waist of Captain Tobias Blosse in the mid 1600 s clearly of the hilt style Moroccan. Showing also a photo of the Moroccan Style. Both pictures from the late Antony Norths "Islamic Arms and Armour"

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All..I have a few pictures to add ...Mahomet Abogli Moroccan ambassador to King George in 1725...with the traditional Moroccan Sword... and a court painting illustrating similar weapons in the period..I post here for interest the Butin chart of the Zanzibar region ...

So what, how, why, when, was the linkup??

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[machinist]

First of all an apology, the pic I submitted as a Yucatan ocellated turkey is a photoshop of a North American turkey, the real ocellated turkey still has a appearance that could influence these shell guards (see pic below) but I should have been more diligent in my research. I have sent Andy a PM since he seems interested on the subject.

Now the good news, I found a "Berber sword" at the local gunshow, the sheath is as good as you will find with the stitching tight, no splits in the leather and some decorative dye remaining. The blade is like many of these, a re-purposed wide fullered blade with a cusped tip. the point is more extreme than any I have seen. It seems rather fragile.

The handle is held together with copper rivets and heavily decorated with brass, some unidentifiable gray metal and two pieces that look like German silver. The gray metal looks like epoxy or plastic but I scratched a small area with a pinpoint and it is silvery metal underneath.

There are the initials BF as well as what looks like a B on the other side. One of the Berber sabers on the sold section of Artzi's website has a set of initials similarly placed (JR) which brings up the likelihood of Roman letters being used on the handle of a north African sword.

I find the difference between the measured and calm decoration of the scabbard and the crazy hodge-podge of the handle striking, I wonder if these were owner modified.

[machinist]

More pics

[Kubur]

Now the good news, I found a "Berber sword" at the local gunshow

There are the initials BF as well as what looks like a B on the other side. One of the Berber sabers on the sold section of Artzi's website has a set of initials similarly placed (JR) which brings up the likelihood of Roman letters being used on the handle of a north African sword.


Congratulation your sword is absolutly gorgeous!!

I read a lot of pages on this forum on the so-called Berber swords, Spanish and Central America...
I think the Berber swords are Berbers point.
The similarity with Spanish colonial swords is obvious, the Western Sahara was a Spanish colonial territory.
Your sword is likely from this area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara

About the Roman letters, they are not incommon in North Africa and countries colonized by Europeans. I have seen a lot on Algerian Moukhala. They were all from the very late 19th c. or early 20th c.
I will place your sword in this range, even if the blade is maybe earlier.

Best,
Kubur

[Jim McDougall]

Rick......I think we're goin' SHAVER KOOL on this one!!!!

Seriously, it is wonderful to see these amazing threads stay alive, and constantly updated with new examples and information!!!

Machinist, thank you so much for staying with the research, and please keep us apprised of Andy's responses on this topic......those curious hilts most definitely deserve continued research.

This example you just got is a beauty! and I agree with Kubur, the nature of the decoration surely does suggest Moroccan character.

What is most curious on these 'Berber' sabres is that they are actually machete type swords which seem to be from Central American regions. The preponderance of examples characteristically are from Spanish colonial areas, often in tropical Mexico, as well as Cuba, Central America, and perhaps parts of South America (though not aware yet of actual provenance or examples).
As Tirri has noted, many of these ended up in Spanish colonies in the early 20th century during insurgences and other dynamic events. This is probably how we have arrived at the 'Berber' sabre appellation.

One feature often present on these, as well as the shell guard examples is the almost common presence of British blades on them, most often of the M1796 light cavalry pattern, and reprofiled on the 'Berber' types.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Rick......I think we're goin' SHAVER KOOL on this one!!!!

Seriously, it is wonderful to see these amazing threads stay alive, and constantly updated with new examples and information!!!

Machinist, thank you so much for staying with the research, and please keep us apprised of Andy's responses on this topic......those curious hilts most definitely deserve continued research.

This example you just got is a beauty! and I agree with Kubur, the nature of the decoration surely does suggest Moroccan character.

What is most curious on these 'Berber' sabres is that they are actually machete type swords which seem to be from Central American regions. The preponderance of examples characteristically are from Spanish colonial areas, often in tropical Mexico, as well as Cuba, Central America, and perhaps parts of South America (though not aware yet of actual provenance or examples).
As Tirri has noted, many of these ended up in Spanish colonies in the early 20th century during insurgences and other dynamic events. This is probably how we have arrived at the 'Berber' sabre appellation.

One feature often present on these, as well as the shell guard examples is the almost common presence of British blades on them, most often of the M1796 light cavalry pattern, and reprofiled on the 'Berber' types.

Salaams Jim, As noted previously; It is curious how there are linkages on these weapons to the Turkey...in the hilt and it seems to me in the curved at right angles, base of the scabbard... Is that not a beak? In addition I note (.) What could be a moon with dot between motif seen on many hilts of this type perhaps taken from the Turkey plumage? see #64

Regarding the Hilt, Is this the original Nimcha hilt or did the Nimcha hilt predate this?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

What is the relationship in the 90 degree bend in the scabbard to Ethiopian style? at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21715 :shrug:

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim,
You have astutely keyed in on a number of elements in these various loosely connected forms. These so called 'Berber' sabres are actually believed to be reprofiled British blades and these open, guardless hilts with an aperture which seems like a birds eye that were apparently machete type weapons. These were seemingly from tropical regions in the 'Spanish Main', which includes Central America and the Gulf littoral of Mexico.

The notable nock in the hilt seems to post date the Arabian sa'if which became known in the Maghreb as the 'nimcha' with that very feature.
This nock for the back of the hand, little finger is found in these 'Berber' sabres, as well as the curious swords from Cuba (termed Guanabacoa) which have these as well as finger stalls in the grip.
The espada ancha forms from South America (Brazil ) and other with the striated shell guards also have these nocks for the hand,
and their diffusion reflects the diffusion of these influences throughout Spanish colonial regions.

The occurrence of the 'Berber' sabres in Morocco was due to volunteers into those Spanish controlled areas in early 20th c. in civil disruptions.
The fact that these are absent from the very thorough works of Charles Buttin, who lived often, as did his family in Morocco, suggests they were not a known indigenous form in these or earlier times. He was an avid researcher and cataloguer of ethnographic weapons, whose works we often rely on.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim,
You have astutely keyed in on a number of elements in these various loosely connected forms. These so called 'Berber' sabres are actually believed to be reprofiled British blades and these open, guardless hilts with an aperture which seems like a birds eye that were apparently machete type weapons. These were seemingly from tropical regions in the 'Spanish Main', which includes Central America and the Gulf littoral of Mexico.

The notable nock in the hilt seems to post date the Arabian sa'if which became known in the Maghreb as the 'nimcha' with that very feature.
This nock for the back of the hand, little finger is found in these 'Berber' sabres, as well as the curious swords from Cuba (termed Guanabacoa) which have these as well as finger stalls in the grip.
The espada ancha forms from South America (Brazil ) and other with the striated shell guards also have these nocks for the hand,
and their diffusion reflects the diffusion of these influences throughout Spanish colonial regions.

The occurrence of the 'Berber' sabres in Morocco was due to volunteers into those Spanish controlled areas in early 20th c. in civil disruptions.
The fact that these are absent from the very thorough works of Charles Buttin, who lived often, as did his family in Morocco, suggests they were not a known indigenous form in these or earlier times. He was an avid researcher and cataloguer of ethnographic weapons, whose works we often rely on.

Thanks Jim.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim,
You have astutely keyed in on a number of elements in these various loosely connected forms. These so called 'Berber' sabres are actually believed to be reprofiled British blades and these open, guardless hilts with an aperture which seems like a birds eye that were apparently machete type weapons. These were seemingly from tropical regions in the 'Spanish Main', which includes Central America and the Gulf littoral of Mexico.

The notable nock in the hilt seems to post date the Arabian sa'if which became known in the Maghreb as the 'nimcha' with that very feature.
This nock for the back of the hand, little finger is found in these 'Berber' sabres, as well as the curious swords from Cuba (termed Guanabacoa) which have these as well as finger stalls in the grip.
The espada ancha forms from South America (Brazil ) and other with the striated shell guards also have these nocks for the hand,
and their diffusion reflects the diffusion of these influences throughout Spanish colonial regions.

The occurrence of the 'Berber' sabres in Morocco was due to volunteers into those Spanish controlled areas in early 20th c. in civil disruptions.
The fact that these are absent from the very thorough works of Charles Buttin, who lived often, as did his family in Morocco, suggests they were not a known indigenous form in these or earlier times. He was an avid researcher and cataloguer of ethnographic weapons, whose works we often rely on.

Salaams Jim, My previous reply above was far too short ...apologies as everything that could fall off my car fell off!! thus I have been away for as few days sticking things back on!!... It is remarkable that Buttin did not record these swords and of course clearly they weren't in Morocco...I wondered about the beak shaped African scabbards at #75 and how they traversed to that form?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It further puzzles me generally with this weapon in its clipped tip form and in viewing the final post at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4679 that this could be inverted?... In fact the first post at the same thread places this form firmly in the Dominican theatre... :shrug: Below a Guanabacoa on orange backdrop...and an example of the clipped tip apparently inverted...

[carlos]

I only want to help in this post with 3 pictures from spanish army museum in Toledo.
Thanks
Carlos

[Ian]

I have been a silent observer of this thread for a long time. But it seems that Carlos' post lays to rest, definitively, the Spanish colonial origins of these swords, with their first appearance in Central America and later transposition to western Africa. This has all been said before in other posts here, but Carlos' finding of an excellent exemplar in the Toledo museum seems to be the icing on the cake.

Unlike the notorious "Shaver Cool" thread which went on forever, this one seems to have reached a clear and unambiguous conclusion. The use of British M1796 light cavalry saber blades on some of these is an interesting finding, and may reflect a surplus supply of these that was repurposed for the Spanish colonies. A Prussian version of the same sword ("Blucher-sabel"--Prussian cavalry M1811) might have been the source for some of these when that model was superseded in 1858.*

Ian.

------------

Reference

* Deller R and Binck J. The Prussian Model 1811 Cavalry Sabre (or "Blücher Sabre"). Classic Arms and Militaria, vol. 8, no. 4, July/August 2001. Accessible online here (http://www.swordsandpistols.co.uk/research/uploads/21cf5f0c3b9493d501a3ae7f5af0d52b.pdf)

[TVV]

Carlos,

Thank you for posting a much better picture of the Toledo sword than what I was able to do a couple of years ago in post 56 of this thread. It may take some time, but I hope eventually these swords will start to be properly attributed to the Caribbean and not to the Maghreb.

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Carlos,

Thank you for posting a much better picture of the Toledo sword than what I was able to do a couple of years ago in post 56 of this thread. It may take some time, but I hope eventually these swords will start to be properly attributed to the Caribbean and not to the Maghreb.

Teodor

We can only hope Teodor!!! :)
I first got one of these 'Berber' sabres back in 1995, before they were very known, and in a few years they gradually appeared.
I also got one of the guanabacoa which was claimed to have come from Monterrey Mexico.
These finger stalled guanabacoa had turned up in a well known dealers catalog as 'Algerian' pirate swords I saw later, which seemed a bizarre attribution. I later began seeing them in other catalogs with Mexican sword groupings. In a London auction catalog, a silver mounted one was listed as a Mexican sword. The article written by Calvo describes them as Cuban, as noted by our Mexican friend Gonzalo, who has not written here in many years.

Over these past 21 years, remarkable numbers of these weapons have appeared, most of them either from Mexico or Central American contexts. Pierce Chamberlain advised me around 2001 of some of these in a catalog which were provenance to Spanish American war bring backs.

In Tirri (2004) were the examples of the 'Berber' type sabres which were associated with volunteers or some such groups in early 20th century Spanish colonies. This was the only established reference I know of which suggested North African attribution of these.

I join with Ian in thanking Carlos for the most telling photos of the sword grouping in Toledo, and Teodor I still remember your entries from those years ago.

Ibrahiim, that curious scabbard with the vertical 'beak' or whatever it is was long confounding to me as well, on the 'Berber' sabres......now known to be Central American, Spanish colonial machetes or such form swords.
A similar type fixture is seen on Ethiopian shotels in "African Arms and Armour" by Christopher Spring, and that became a kind of red herring often wondering what the Ethiopian/Berber connection was.

It has been suggested that these are a kind of 'handle' to withdraw the machete from the usually leather mount scabbards, possibly more difficult in moist tropical climes ?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

We can only hope Teodor!!! :)
I first got one of these 'Berber' sabres back in 1995, before they were very known, and in a few years they gradually appeared.
I also got one of the guanabacoa which was claimed to have come from Monterrey Mexico.
These finger stalled guanabacoa had turned up in a well known dealers catalog as 'Algerian' pirate swords I saw later, which seemed a bizarre attribution. I later began seeing them in other catalogs with Mexican sword groupings. In a London auction catalog, a silver mounted one was listed as a Mexican sword. The article written by Calvo describes them as Cuban, as noted by our Mexican friend Gonzalo, who has not written here in many years.

Over these past 21 years, remarkable numbers of these weapons have appeared, most of them either from Mexico or Central American contexts. Pierce Chamberlain advised me around 2001 of some of these in a catalog which were provenance to Spanish American war bring backs.

In Tirri (2004) were the examples of the 'Berber' type sabres which were associated with volunteers or some such groups in early 20th century Spanish colonies. This was the only established reference I know of which suggested North African attribution of these.

I join with Ian in thanking Carlos for the most telling photos of the sword grouping in Toledo, and Teodor I still remember your entries from those years ago.

Ibrahiim, that curious scabbard with the vertical 'beak' or whatever it is was long confounding to me as well, on the 'Berber' sabres......now known to be Central American, Spanish colonial machetes or such form swords.
A similar type fixture is seen on Ethiopian shotels in "African Arms and Armour" by Christopher Spring, and that became a kind of red herring often wondering what the Ethiopian/Berber connection was.

It has been suggested that these are a kind of 'handle' to withdraw the machete from the usually leather mount scabbards, possibly more difficult in moist tropical climes ?


Thank you Jim, In particular about the strange 90 degree turn at the end of the scabbard. In some examples I see it as a beak?... At first I associated it with the Turkey design... In this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21715 please see the non beak version leading me to think it was either to steady the weapon when on horseback or to use that as a way of pulling the sword. In this case it appears to be Ethiopian ... and in a previous note I saw your attribution of the weapon traversing African supply/religious/ tribal routes thus perhaps it influenced North African or slave routes direct to the Atlantic slave trade stations and beyond.