Barrel dating

[Spiridonov]

Whether there is an error in dating of this trunk? Is the wood original or faked in 19 century As it sometimes happened?

[Matchlock]

Hi, Spiridonov,

This fine handgun is one of the most drastic examples of dating early guns incorrectly in more recent arms history.

It was salvaged from the water at the Kurisches Haff, Poland, in the 19th century. The barrel is of cast copper alloy, the tiller stock is original and hollowed out to receive the ramrod. The item is preserved at the National Museum Wojska Polskiego, Warsaw.

As the swiveling pan cover attached by a screw (neither screws nor pans or pan covers are known before ca. 1500!), and according to the new and transferable dating criteria that I have evolved, a date closely to around 1500 can be fixed.

I attach images of a very similar Nuremberg tiller gun from my collection, retaining its original limewood tiller stock decorated with stamps of flowers and other symbols, just like Gothic book bindings.

Best,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

neither screws nor pans or pan covers are known before ca. 1500!
handgonne from Otepaa have pan covers. Adnd many asian handgonnes have too befor 1500
This barrel had pan cover too http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=48227&stc=1

[Matchlock]

1. Not one single Asian hand cannon is kown to have actually been cast (they are all cast) before 1500.

2. How did you come and state that this barrel originally had a pan cover?

Best,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

2. How did you come and state that this barrel originally had a pan cover?

Sorry, not pan cover, but touch hole cover

[Spiridonov]

Otepaa seemsed was have touch hole cover. It dated about the end of 14 century

[Matchlock]

Otepaa seemsed was have touch hole cover. It dated about the end of 14 century

I have never heard of this one, and a line drawing will not suffice to comment on a piece. Furthermore, my expertise covers only Central Eurpoean firearms.

Michael

[Spiridonov]

I have never heard of this one, and a line drawing will not suffice to comment on a piece. Furthermore, my expertise covers only Eurpoean firearms.

Michael
I have photo of this at my home. I am working now and cant upload it/ This handgonne from fort in Estonia wich was destroyed about 1380 year

[Matchlock]

Hi Spiridonov,

There were no covers of touch holes in the 1470's.

In about 1450 touch holes started to get surrounded by a slight pan like moulding for the priming powder. These were the earliest forms of rudimentary priming pans.

During the second half of the 15th century, the touch holes tended to 'wander' from the top flat of the barrel to the right side, just above the wood of the stock, step by step.

With both the touch holes and their priming mouldings becoming larger within that same period of time, we find the erliest examples of fully developed pans and covers around 1500.

This explanation is oversimplified, though, and can by no means be regarded as a rule. There are lots of examples of barrels with a touch hole still on the top flat and with no pan like moulding as late as ca. 1500. After the turn of of the century, however, they rapidly vanish and pans with covers start prevailing.

Best,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/lautmann_lock%203.JPG
Arquebuse of Martin Merz 1475 year have flashpan :confused:

[Matchlock]

This is another big error in arms literature; Martin Merz' book was on artillery; he died in Amberg, Bavaria, in 1501.
He started writing his book in 1475 and finshed it shortly before his death; it was common in those days to write sketch books that were already bound, and often leave a couple of pages free for later amendmends.
This drawing of a handgun with the pan on the right side of the barrel, with a matchlock on a fully developed lock plate and a carved wooden stock must have been one of Merz' latest additions.

I attach a photo of his tombstone made of red marble; he was blind in one eye, probably from an accident at work.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Two matchlock arquebuses simillar to the drawing by Martin Merz, from the Ingenieurskunst- und Wunderbuch (Book on Engineering and Miracles), Weimar, ca. 1520's, fol. 196r.

The barrels can be formally dated to ca. 1500.

Michael

[Spiridonov]

Thank you! It is the very interesting fact!

[Matchlock]

For a barrel from your preferred period of interest please go to:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10526

[Paddy T.]

handgonne from Otepaa have pan covers

Yes, that´s absolutely correct. Unfortunatelly Mäesalu published only a reconstruction, but I know the look of the real fragments and the real (restored) hangun, too. There definitely is a pan cover.

As I pointed out in the other thread, the terminus ante quem for the Otepää gun isn´t usable any longer, but there is archaeological evidence (which I would prefer instead of other criteria) for dating the destruction of the castle within the 1st half of the 15th century. So the hypothesis of "no pan covers before ca. 1500" seems to be wrong. If you compare the weapon to other finds, there are also some matches, so the Otepää gun can´t be repudiated as a "non central european weapon".

Furthermore, a "trough-like" pan with upturned edges (but without pan cover) is present at the Mörkö-gun, which is dated to the 1st half of the 15th century.