Moro Sulu Sultanate Flag with Kris and Spear

[Battara]

A little different but related. Here is a Moro flag from the Sulu sultanate from around 1900. Rare and with a spear and wavy bladed kris sewn into the design. Enjoy.

[Rick]

Very nice ! :)

What is the other symbol Jose ?
The white disc with blue center ... Taming ?

[Battara]

Thank you Rick.

As far as that round spot is concerned, I have no idea - hoping some one else can illuminate. :shrug:

I have seen one with 2 black parts in the white part before.......

[Rick]

Where'd you come across that beauty Jose ?
Is it yours ? :)
If it is , congratulations !

[Battara]

Yes it is mine. :D

Got it off of ebay. :eek:

[Rick]

Very nice !! :)

[Robert]

Great flag Jose!! :eek: What a rare find and congratulations on being able to score it for your collection. Could you possibly post a picture or two of the opposite side as I would very much like to see a little more detail of how the sword and spear inserts were sewn in place?

Robert

[migueldiaz]

Nice flag :) What do the five stars represent?

There's a lot of Sulu flags in this website (http://www.webalice.it/paopadd/SULU_SULTANATE_BATTLE_FLAGS_-_2.html), for comparison purposes.

[Robert]

Migueldiaz,
The website you have linked in your post states what I have heard before about the stars, that they represent the five territories of the Sultanate of Sulu. I have no idea if this is correct or not. :confused:

Robert

[migueldiaz]

Thanks Robert! :)

Now there's a certain "Ron Z" mentioned in one of the webpages (http://www.webalice.it/paopadd/FLAGS_OF_SULU_BEFORE_1898_-_PART_4.html) there, as being the resource person. Maybe somebody knows him? ;) :D

The website says he owns the kris below:

[Battara]

Thank you - as far as the other side is concerned, I will try to get a picture of the other side.

As far as Ron Z is concerned, he is Spunger. However, the story if the 5 stars being the provinces of the Sulu Sultanate is in another source as well. I go with this story as well.

Another note, most of the flags like this have straight kris, this one has a wavy bladed kris. The only one of this type of flag I have seen so far.

[David]

Nice flag José, and as you point out, even rarer with the wavy kris. Thanks for the flag link Miguel. It is interesting to look at the pre-American colony flags. Obviously these ones with the field of stars is somewhat based on the American flag which intrigues me since the Americans were obviously the enemy of the Moros. Why copy your enemy's flag? :shrug:

[Battara]

If I am not mistaken the Sultan of Sulu at this time sided with the might of the US, though some broke away from this decision as demonstrated by the Battle of Bud Badsak in 1915.

I must make a correction - after looking again at Paolo's site, half the battle flags like mine have a wavy bladed kris in them after all. :o

[migueldiaz]

Nice flag José, and as you point out, even rarer with the wavy kris. Thanks for the flag link Miguel. It is interesting to look at the pre-American colony flags. Obviously these ones with the field of stars is somewhat based on the American flag which intrigues me since the Americans were obviously the enemy of the Moros. Why copy your enemy's flag? :shrug:I think it was a love-hate relationship that existed between the two.

Thus the American flag-inspired version of the Sulu flag must have been crafted during the love phase of the relationship ;) :)

[Dimasalang]

Nice find on ebay! Wish I could be so lucky.
I think the white sphere is a UFO. :shrug:

[Atlantia]

Well! You know I love the 'associated ethnographia', so I doubt you'll be suprised when I add my congratulations! :)
What a nice and rather unusual piece! A fantastic backdrop for weapons too, I'm always looking for nice things to 'enhance' the display of my weapons. IMHO your flag wold rate as 'He shoots, he scores'.

Regards
Gene

[migueldiaz]

However, the story if the 5 stars being the provinces of the Sulu Sultanate is in another source as well. I go with this story as well.Thanks for the comment.

On a lighter note, I don't think that my imagined scenario below would be far-fetched :rolleyes: ;) :)

[Ferguson]

Jose, that's a really nice flag. You were quite fortunate to win it.
Thanks for sharing with us!

STeve

[Battara]

Great flag Jose!! :eek: What a rare find and congratulations on being able to score it for your collection. Could you possibly post a picture or two of the opposite side as I would very much like to see a little more detail of how the sword and spear inserts were sewn in place?

Robert
Robert here are finally some pictures of the other side to show how it was sown in. The flag designs were cut out and the pieces sown on top of one side.

Thank you folks for your kind words and enjoy:

[Robert]

Jose,
Thank you very much for posting the close-ups of how the white designs were applied to the red back-ground. By looking at the pictures first posted and comparing them to the ones just now posted am I correct in assuming that the designs were applied to one side only and then on the opposite side the red back-ground was cut away to show them? Again, congratulations on being able to acquire this wonderful piece of history and thank you for posting the new pictures.

Robert

[Battara]

Yes Robert you are correct in your observations. In some ways this makes the flag more delicate. In fact I am afraid of hanging it even in museum fashion for fear of ripping it.

[Robert]

Jose,
Not knowing the dimensions makes it hard to make suggestions on how to best store or display an item like this. If the size is not too great I think that I would have the cloth stabilized, treated to protect it from bugs, mold and mildew and then put in between two panes of glass in a frame so it could be viewed from both sides.

Robert

[Rick]

With a mat to keep the cloth from being 'pinched' .

[Reichsritter]

With the arrival of the Americans in Sulu the star became a fancy symbol. The 5 stars represents the sultanate's dominions; Sulu, Tawi-Tawi, Basilan, North Borneo and southern Palawan. This flag seems a different variation to me as it appears without the Barung, for the Shakirullah family. A Datu once told me that weapons on the flag symbolizes branches of the royal family. Kalis for Kiram and Budjak (spear) for the Maharaja Adinda family. The object below can be the gate of Mecca as what the former flags states.

[migueldiaz]

With the arrival of the Americans in Sulu the star became a fancy symbol. The 5 stars represents the sultanate's dominions; Sulu, Tawi-Tawi, Basilan, North Borneo and southern Palawan. This flag seems a different variation to me as it appears without the Barung, for the Shakirullah family. A Datu once told me that weapons on the flag symbolizes branches of the royal family. Kalis for Kiram and Budjak (spear) for the Maharaja Adinda family. The object below can be the gate of Mecca as what the former flags states.
Reichsritter, very interesting! Thanks for the info.

[Dimasalang]

The object below can be the gate of Mecca as what the former flags states.

Of my limited knowledge here, I know on some flags and banners, the "II" symbol represents the two gates of Mecca. But this is just one "I" and it is on its side?
:confused: :shrug:

[Battara]

Reichsritter - I also thank you for the information. Very helpful. I have seen several of these without the barung, and some with the barung.

Check out these examples:

http://www.webalice.it/paopadd/MORO_BATTLE_FLAGS_-_2.html
http://www.webalice.it/paopadd/MORO_BATTLE_FLAGS_-_3.html
http://www.webalice.it/paopadd/MORO_BATTLE_FLAGS_-_4.html

Dimasalang - good point about the gates of Mecca.

[Reichsritter]

Of my limited knowledge here, I know on some flags and banners, the "II" symbol represents the two gates of Mecca. But this is just one "I" and it is on its side?
:confused: :shrug:

Dimasalang, I think the "II" symbol is not the Roman numerals for 2 but the Minaret on the gates. The first Sultan of Sulu to perform the pilgrimage was Badaruddin II (1881-1886). On his account he would described what the gates looks like.

Battara, I don't know what year this flag was but during the American occupation of Sulu there was a point that the Shakirullah branch was a rival claimant to the throne.

[Dimasalang]

Dimasalang, I think the "II" symbol is not the Roman numerals for 2 but the Minaret on the gates. The first Sultan of Sulu to perform the pilgrimage was Badaruddin II (1881-1886). On his account he would described what the gates looks like.


Sorry, what I meant by "II" was in reference to the symbol seen in this photo...not Roman numerals. Thought you would understand what I meant by just typing "II". :)

http://www.webalice.it/paopadd/moros%20battle%20flag.jpg

[Reichsritter]

[QUOTE=Dimasalang]Sorry, what I meant by "II" was in reference to the symbol seen in this photo...not Roman numerals. Thought you would understand what I meant by just typing "II". :)

Thanks, I see now what you mean. what I also mean is the old gate less the minaret on both side. The silhouette of the main Mecca Masjid gate just looks like it. Anyway, just a probable explanation. Actually very little info available on what these objects on different flags really are (except for the minarets on the gate). By the way , the owner of the website is a friend of mine. Paolo would be very glad to share any new info he might have regarding the flags. I met him here in Manila 3 years ago.

[Battara]

Paolo is a great guy - I already sent larger pictures of this flag to him. :)