Wallachian Swords of the 15th Century: What Types?

[Jim McDougall]

Recently I received a query concerning interest in what type of sword might have been carried by Vlad III, who is of course more recognized for his inspiration for the fictional character of Bram Stoker, Dracula.

In trying to learn more on this, I decided that the title I have used might keep things more focused on the topic of the weapons, without being drawn into the psuedo Gothic pop culture perspective more commonly associated with this historical figure.

Apparantly Vlad (1431-1476) was the son of Vlad Dracul, whose name 'Dracul' derived from his appointment to the somewhat secretive fraternal Order of the Dragon in 1431. This rather elite organization for rulers and high officials was essentially derived from and in league with other military orders such as the Tuetonic Knights, Hospitallers et al. and apparantly begun by the Hungarian Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund in 1408.
The appointment of Vlad (the senior) to Dracul took place in Nuremberg.
It should be noted that Wallachia in these times was profoundly settled by Saxons, and trade activity was accordingly with German merchants in its major cities.

It would seem that it would be most likely that the swords of the Wallachian forces would likely have come from the weapons producers of Germany, and consisted of knightly weapons associated with heavy armored European style warfare. Also, the swords of Byzantine Bulgaria may have also been prevalent. However, the question seems to be, would Vlad III, Dracula, the son, have used a sabre?

While the Ottomans had taken the Bulgarian regions, it seems important to try to establish when the sabre became prominantly in use by the Ottomans, and would Vlad III have adopted its use. So far I have found that the form was 'recognizable' by the end of the 15th century, and that Hungarian sabres, whose form derived from Ottoman sabres were not actually seen until the 16th century.

I have not found any evidence of any sword attributed to Vlad III, although we have had visits to museums in Transylvania and others shared here it seems in past years.

I'd like to know what others think on this, and of anyone is aware of any sword in any museum attributed to, or if the type possibly used, by Vlad III.

All best regards,
Jim

[kronckew]

did we not have a discussion about regional sabres, ie. hungarian (magyar) ones existing in the 9th c.? i seem to recall seeing some museum exhibits of the same. i remember as i have a couple of modern repro magyar sabres
from the 9c & 16c. & the 9c museum ones looked much like corroded versions of mine...which actually came from hungary and made by a hungarian swordsmith.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Hungarian%20sabre/berbecusz005_DCE.jpg
vlad would likely have had a bit fancier one i suspect. the yelmanned one at the bottom was supposedly an early 16c magyar, so would only have been a few decades after he was killed, there must have been some transitioning style in between.

the man himself:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Vlad_Tepes_002.jpg/200px-Vlad_Tepes_002.jpg

as he was incarcerated by the king of hungary, only to wind up marrying one of his daughters as his second wife, (he died in battle with the turks a couple of years later) he would have been very familiar with the magyar sabres of the period. as he hated the turk with a passion, he would be less likely to use a turkish format weapon...none of the various paintings of him from the period that i've seen show him with a weapon.

ah, yes found the thread here (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8594&highlight=magyar)

i think the sabre in the posts by matchlock & tvv just before your terminal post looks like one vlad would have been happy with.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=40878&stc=1

seems to be nicknamed 'the charlemagne' or the 'attila' sword. maybe it's really the vlad sword ;)

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Kronckew,
Thank you so much for responding and for finding these threads. I seem to be getting worse at finding things.......good one on the 'terminal' thread!! :) LOL! I seem to have a lot of those.....just call me the terminator....oh well, a guys gotta get the last word in somewhere.

Those truly are beautiful sabres, especially the Magyar. I have always thought these early Hungarian sabres were incredibly attractive, and somehow though I thought they were earlier, it seems these are believed to descend from the Turkish forms of the 16th century. Vlad was killed in 1476.
Most of what I can find seems to suggest that if Wallachia was so prevalently occupied by Saxons, there was strong German trade, and the
Order of the Dragon was a Germanic order focused on heavily armoured knights, then Germanic arming broadswords were plausibly used.

In one museum in Transylvania there is an example of one of these broadswords of the general type, must find the post (I think Radu posted it). These are seen in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" (Wagner, plate 24) hexagonal cross section pommel, cross guard in reversed S shape, straight broadsword, captioned Germanic c.1450. Others are also simple crossguard knightly broadswords.

The only substance I can find that would suggest the use of a sabre of this Hungarian/Turkish form would be that Vlad was assisted in recovering his rule by the Hungarians the same year of his death, 1476. If the use of these sabres extended that far back, rather than the 16th century that seems generally held, it might be possible.
I know it is a common misconception that throughout the Crusades, the Saracens all wielded deeply curved sabres, though it is known that mostly the swords were simple crossguard straight broadswords, similar to those of the European crusaders. There were however some curved swords, the European falchions more a heavy blade with radiused edge. It is unclear to me what type curved swords the Muslim forces might have had.

Thank you for posting this Kronckew!! Those are beauties, and as you say, perhaps it is the 'Vlad' sword.......thanks also for the portrait of the 'Prince of Darkness' :)

All the best,
Jim

[kronckew]

dates are always confusing me, 1476 is the last quarter of the 15th century and only 24 years from the 16th century - which starts in 1500, so i had lept at the assumption that the changes over that short a period would not have been great. wallachia had been under mongol rule until the early 1300's (14th century) when hungary took over, so curved mongolian style swords would possibly be familiar objects. the area involved:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/34/Mihai_1600.png/250px-Mihai_1600.png

found this partial image of a statue of him holding a sword that is straight however. not found any details on the date of the statue

http://www.marsdenarchive.com/getpreview/00000151/MA-RO-032.jpg

this one shows vlad recieving turkish envoys, seems to show him wearing a sabre very like the charlemagne/attilla/9c kronckew repro.
http://www.tkinter.smig.net/Romania/ArtGallery/Aman/images/Vlad.jpg
again, no date info on painting, may have been dramatic license of a later artist. national gallery bucharest.

cropped/sharpened section:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Hungarian%20sabre/vlad.jpg

he has a mace in this one
http://www.prinzvlad.com/Bilder%20Prinz%20Vlad%20Draculea%20(Tepes)/Staue_Prinz-Vladgros.jpg
edited:found a better photo, shows a sword

this one looks to be fairly recent, no sword visible, is that his coat of arms?
http://www.prinzvlad.com/Bilder%20Prinz%20Vlad%20Draculea%20(Tepes)/Pfaehlungen_Vlad_Draculea.jpg

of course attempts to photograph him in later years after his death were unsuccessful as his image cannot be photographed or seen in a mirror ;)

(i personally suspect that as his head was removed and sent to the turkish sultan in instanbul, where it was displayed, fittingly, impailed on a spike, that his transformation into a classical vampire would have been impossible. severing the head (or spine) was one of the traditional ways to kill one. he would have made a great headless horseman tho, ichabod crane would have loved to meet him)

[TVV]

Approximately at the same time Vlad III ruled Wallachia, in neighboring Moldova ruled Stefan the Great, whose sword is currently in the Top Kapi armoury in Istanbul.

Courtesy of Micha Hofmann in the MyArmoury forums, I was able to find the following image, which I think shows the sword quite well. Too bad the Ottomans did not decide to keep one of Vlad's swords as a memento of him, it would have helped us a lot.

David Nicolle wrote a book on the region's arms and armor for Osprey, titled something like "Hungary and the Fall of the Eastern Roman Empire", which may contain some insight in the arms used in Wallachia in the 15th century.

Regards,
Teodor

[kronckew]

as mentioned, this all was going on around the time of the fall of the roman empire, which ended with the fall of byzantium/constantinople in 1453 (name changed officially to 'istanbul' in 1930 - the turks called it mostly constantinople (Kostantiniyye in turkish) tho some called it istanbul or other variants).

constantinople was defended by 7000 odd men in 1453, mostly venetian and genoese mercenaries against 80,000 turks, mehmet used siege artillery to batter down it's formidable walls. as the sons of the then emperor fled, and the remaining free roman states were not conquered till 1460, one could argue that as the date of the final fall, or even 1503 when the last graeco-roman 'emperor' died.

quite a mix of cultures and weapons in the area in the latter half of the 15th c. this event is seen as the end of the dark ages, and the start of renaissance europe as the populace that fled spread byzantine culture throughout europe.

wheelocks are thought to have been invented around 1500, wonder if ol' vlad may have had a beta copy for evaluation from one of the techie geeks of the age.

[Jim McDougall]

Kronckew and Teodor,
Thank you so much guys for this great information, and excellent images!!!
It would seem the statues reflect the knightly broadswords of medieval Europe as the type weapon likely used by Vlad, and this would seem to agree with the powerful German/Saxon presence in Wallachia and these regions.

Teodor, great work in locating the photos of the sword of Stefan the Great held in Topkapi, and our appreciation extended to MyArmoury forums for sharing it. Interesting item above the sword, which appears ivory.

Kronckew, LOL!! You truly have a great sense of humor! I truly love your pop-ups , along with the great images you share.

The painting of Vlad seated is kind of blurred, but the sword pommel seems to correspond to the Hungarian/Turkish sabres, and it seems I can see a trace of what appears to be the very wide crossguard. As often is the case, I would suspect artists license here.
The period of Vlad III would seem to take place in the time of the dramatic transformation from Medieval to renaissance, and such change did not take place overnight. It would seem that the advent of sabres was likely quite connected to the developing of light cavalry, the sipahi, as frontier type units often comprised of warriors from tribes of the Steppes.
While the traditional swords of standing armies of the Ottomans likely followed similar broadswords to those of the Mamluks early weapons, it seems that the sabre gradually supplanted these forms.

As mentioned previously, the Transylvanian museum images I have seen, seem to have numerous sword forms, the Germanic broadswords of varying form as well as I believe some elaborate hilted examples of Hispano-Moresque form, which I would presume were some sort of diplomatic gift rather than commonly used form. Going by uncaptioned photos is always a bit precarious as there are numbers of other weapons, such as Austro-Hungarian sabres of as late as 19th century and kilijs etc. in many of the same display cases.

Thanks again guys very much!

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Thanks for the heads up Teodor on the Osprey title.....its on the way but I'll have to call for an airdrop probably if it doesnt get here before the bus rolls :) David Nicolle is a brilliant scholar and author on the history of the weaponry of these regions and periods.

[Samik]

Hello ,
I thought I would chime in on those pesky sabres ;). Usualy the knightly class (i.e. western shock cavalry) of the pre-Mohacs(1526) era hungary was equipped with longswords, pretty much like their germanic cousins. However sabres were a common weapon of the light cavalry long before any contact with Ottoman Turks happened (light cavalry usually consisting of Pechengs , later on Cumanians and Szekely (sic) which were semi-nomadic nations that resided in the lands of hungarian kings and fought pretty much like mongols).

If I may I would also disagree a little bit with you Jim (hope you dont mind ;) ) that hungarian sabres were the direct descendants of Turkish sabres and only appeared in the course of 16th century. There is evidence both in form of antique weapons http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/displayimage.php?album=40&pos=57 (hope I can post this link from another "armoury" website , if not I will try to edit the post) and in heraldy http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikibooks/hu/7/72/Szerdahelyi_Husz%C3%A1r_%281466%29.jpg ( a rare 1466 Corvinus era coat of arms , that belongs to some hussar by the name of Peter). As you can see from the above examples the sabres had more in common with schiavonesca style swords than Kilij-proper ( I dont like to call the turkish sabres "kilij" , AFAIK its a generic term for sword , but whatever ;) ). Note the handle and the presence of a "sword" pommel. Furthermore there is a nice example of a schiavonesca-style longsword alongside a similarly styled sabre http://www.tforum.info/forum/gallery_uploads/gallery_2580_295_18626.jpg

To determine the armament used by count Vlad III. is however a bit difficult. If he was the typical 15th century Wallachian nobleman like his father (and many other Hungarian ones) that served as a knightly/shock cavalry (again I dont like to use the term "heavy" , it somehow conveys clumsiness and slowness , which was not the case imho) it would look pretty much like this I guess http://www.hung-art.hu/kep/zmisc/faragvan/15_sz/sirko2/hunyadi7.jpg

However from what little I know about Vlad's life , in his early youth he was sent together with his brother to Turkey as a hostage. There he was however trained in Ottoman way of war and Qur'an logic. I even think that his "comeback" arrival home was with an ottoman army ,in order to seize fathers kingdom and to become a sort of a pupper ruler for the ottomans (I am not sure on this story though I would welcome if somebody more familiar with Vlad's life could check it up). Thus one might argue that he could have access to Turkish weaponry, although the lack of evidence is preventing from making any such claims.


P.S: English is not my native language , so sorry for any errors

P.S.2: I am a new guy here , so please go easy on me :D and HELLO everyone :)

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Samik, and WOW, thats what I call an entrance!!!! Welcome :)

I absolutely do not mind you disagreeing, in fact the outstanding information you have presented beautifully orients our discussion (no pun intended) concerning whether Vlad's sword might have been a sabre of Ottoman form.

Excellent point on the ethnic diversity of Hungary in these times, and indeed there were varying nomadic tribes from the Steppes who certainly are known for using the developing sabre form. This truly is well placed information and in focusing on the Ottomans, had entirely overlooked the presence of these peoples in Eastern European kingdoms.

I know what you mean about the term 'heavy cavalry' or heavily armoured etc. and I think the best example I can think of that disproves that misconception were the Polish 'Winged Hussars', which of course is simply one example of European armoured cavalry. ...hardly slow, and definitely most formidable.

You are also quite right in the note regarding application of sword terms, which is also often extremely misleading, and there seems to be so many instances where a more detailed description is much more effective. It seems we have had debates on terminology so often, which seldom resolve any of the issues, but also prove interesting when new perspective or evidence is presented.

Again, I am so glad you joined us here, and thank you so much for the beautifully presented observations, links and perspective. I very much look forward to your continued participation in searching more into this puzzle.

All the very best,
Jim

[Samik]

Thank you for the warm welcome Jim!

As for joining this forum I have always wanted to do so long ago , but only recently discovered (well today to be precise) that I had to email Mr. Jones in order to register (silly me!). I would also like to thank you and the other forum members as you were one of the sources of inspiration for me in order to pursue further knowledge about the subject. :)

But enough with my rant, lets see if I (or somebody else) will try to dig some more about Vlad...(oh and Wallachian swords of the 15th century!)

Sorry for the interference ;)

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the warm welcome Jim!

As for joining this forum I have always wanted to do so long ago , but only recently discovered (well today to be precise) that I had to email Mr. Jones in order to register (silly me!). I would also like to thank you and the other forum members as you were one of the sources of inspiration for me in order to pursue further knowledge about the subject. :)

But enough with my rant, lets see if I (or somebody else) will try to dig some more about Vlad...(oh and Wallachian swords of the 15th century!)

Sorry for the interference ;)


Not interference Samik!!! Participation, and thank you for the kind words.
We share knowledge and learn together here, and you are clearly a valuable addition to the group. Please rant away, you're right with us :)

All the best,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Hi Jim and all,

Nice topic :) Radu would have jumped on it in the past. As the apparently only Romanian on the board, I'll chime in for a bit. My understanding is that Valahian culture and arms and armour were subject to multiple spheres of influence in the 15th century. The examples I have seen in the military museum in Bucharest range from straight European blades to Ottoman blades. Axes and maces were also quite popular, and as Samik pointed out (welcome Samik) there is great similarity with Hungarian equipment. Armies were also drawn from the peasantry, so equipment was often rudimentary and agricultural implements were often used.

Vlad would have been at ease with both Western and Ottoman arms and armour. He may have hated Turks, but he would not have disregarded their technology. Until he actively opposed the Porte and stopped paying tribute, he even had Ottoman troops on loan.

I have lost much of my picture archives in the past, but I will try to track down some museum pics and dated examples.

I've often looked for a weapon type that was distinctly Romanian / Vlach / Dacian, but there isn't much besides the Dacian falx, and even that is a continuation of other tools and weapons (the rhomphaia, convex Thracian daggers, and others) rather than a local invention. Vlachs were not a particualrly warlike people and we did not develop a strong martial spirit. Our coniving Boers didn't help, preferring to pay tribute to the Porte rather than support a unifying prince.

Emanuel

[Samik]

Hi Emanuel ,

Thanks for your welcome as well.
As you happen to be a native to that part of world Im sure you are more versed in the history of Dracula than most of us. I would kindly ask you if you could elaborate a bit more (if its okay with you and not too much offtopic) on the relationship between the Ottoman Sultan , Vlad , his dad and Hunyady(hungarian regent/ruler at the time). It seemed to me (from reading some of the pseudofactual biography of Vlad) that there was some backstory and tension in the air both from hungarians and turks. I remember reading an article on Vlad from a Slovak historian that pointed out that the massacres and killings under Vlad’s ruling might partly come from the exaggaration of Ottoman and Hungarian chronicles. From what (little) I gather, he was somewhat reluctant to join either party and that "obstinacy" of his could be the cause of the infamous notoriety (sort of like a late medieval propoganda).

You might know Count Elizabeth Bathory from upper hungary , (Slovakia at present) , that had been accussed of murdering young women. However some of those accusations were overstatements ,that sometimes drifted to purely ridiculous claims such as the notorious habit of "bathing in virgins blood". Later on it became evident that the authors of those claims were some of Elizabeth’s peers looking for a way to put her behind bars and claim her (vast) property and riches. Personaly I see a bit of paralels with Vlad (not only in the fact that the Bathory lineage has roots from that part of balkans ;). Even Hunyady’s son Matthias Corvinus (that was nicknamed "Just") wasnt really a fan of Vlad’s and imprisoned him for some time IIRC. Imho origins on the matter might shed some further light on the topic (even if it touches it only lightly).

Furthermore you mentioned that Vlachs were not really a warlike folk. However Heat’s Armies of the Middle Ages , part 2 that focuses on eastern europe and balkans among other things (mind you a bit outdated source , the book was published in 1984, and even though its target audience is wargamers, still has some valid passages nevertheless) explicitly says " The Cumans and Wallachians were very similar in arms and appearance, and significantly the term 'Cuman' and 'Wallachian' are used interchangebly in 13th-14th century Hungarian sources." As far as Cumans/Cumanians (in their native tongue they called themselves "Kipcak", Hungarians called them "Kunó") are concerned I can tell you that they were a hell of a fighters/warriors (having a lineage and art of war coming right out of the eurasian steepe).

I am aware of the fact that during Vlad’s reign a lot could change ( The somewhat germanic Order of the dragon and whatnot), but despite this the lineage of Dracul/Dracula’s predecessors seems to have link to Bassarab (I not sure on this a checkup would be welcomed) which was a Cumanian ruler and most definetley a "saber-wielder" :cool:

P.S: excuse the somewhat awkward attempt in quoting the source, the book in mind is this http://www.spiritgames.co.uk/wgrulessin.php?UniqueNo=79

Cheers ,
Samuel

[Emanuel]

Hi Samuel,

Your comments are quite right. I'll comment quickly now and get back later with a detailed response.

Romanians generally think well of Vlad Tepes. His rule was characterized by relative fairness to peasants and the poor, stable laws, and a balance to the power of the Boier landowners. He is also well remembered for his sustained opposition to the Turks and his attempt to keep Valahia independent of the Ottoman Empire and the other European powers alike. A good reason to vilify him. I don't doubt some of his cruelty to his enemies, both foreign and Vlach, but I think the accounts of it exaggerated.

Cumans (a Turkic people) were indeed warlike, the reason a number of our rulers were of Cuman decent, or at least claimed such decent. But with the exception of the Ottoman wars, there were relatively few engagements with neighbours, mostly with Hungary, and generally focused on the unification of the three "Romanian" principalities, Transylvania, Valahia and Moldova.

More later... :)

[Elias Shereider]

However from what little I know about Vlad's life , in his early youth he was sent together with his brother to Turkey as a hostage. There he was however trained in Ottoman way of war and Qur'an logic. I even think that his "comeback" arrival home was with an ottoman army ,in order to seize fathers kingdom and to become a sort of a pupper ruler for the ottomans (I am not sure on this story though I would welcome if somebody more familiar with Vlad's life could check it up). Thus one might argue that he could have access to Turkish weaponry, although the lack of evidence is preventing from making any such claims.



Yes Samik,

At the 14 years (its de 'Juvenis' age, a adult man in the XV) Vlad was retained by the Murad II in her court un the Ottoman empire for 4 years 1444-1448.
Vlad return to Vallachia in 1448 after the battle of KosovoJ with 30.000 Turkish soldiers to reign Vallachia in Mullads's name.

This indicates that his first sword was Turkish.

sorry for my bad english,

Elias

[Jim McDougall]

Yes Samik,

At the 14 years (its de 'Juvenis' age, a adult man in the XV) Vlad was retained by the Murad II in her court un the Ottoman empire for 4 years 1444-1448.
Vlad return to Vallachia in 1448 after the battle of KosovoJ with 30.000 Turkish soldiers to reign Vallachia in Mullads's name.

This indicates that his first sword was Turkish.

sorry for my bad english,

Elias

Hi Elias, and welcome!!! I'm glad to see you here. I hope you will find the discussion intreresting, and add findings from your research on this topic as well.



While I still have been trying to catch up on the complexity of the history of these regions in these times, and am in complete admiration of the command of it by Samik, as well as Emanuel, I'm still not convinced that Vlad would have carried an Ottoman type sword.

It remains that the German influences in Wallachia were prevalent, and certainly the sword blades were as well. In "Hungary and the Fall of Eastern Europe 1000-1568" by David Nicolle (Osprey, 2001, p.26) the sword of Stephan the Great of Moldavia c.1480 is shown (also seen in post #5 here). It is a standard simple crossguard broadsword with blade believed possibly imported from Germany.
Though obviously suggested, not declared, the note is simply to show that these German blades were straight broadsword forms used apparantly extensively in these regions in these times, and by prominant figures. The influence and import of German arms and armour had prevailed for well over two centuries at this point, and certainly would have been well established.

While Vlad was held by the Ottomans, and certainly did receive training by them, it does not necessarily prove that he subscribed to thier styles and weaponry, despite various suggestions of his doing so by later accounts and particularly artistic interpretations.

I think one strong suggestion for the possibility of Vlad's use of a sabre is probably the noted influences of the Cuman (Kipchak) tribes in Hungary and their use of sabres is of course well known, as was that of other steppes tribes whose ethnic presence throughout these regions is established.
Since Vlads final reign was accomplished in the year of his death 1476 with the help of Hungary, perhaps that light have presented the potential for sabres at his disposal.

As always, looking forward to more from Samik, Emaneul and Elias and others who have far better understanding of this history than I, and thier thoughts.

All the best,
Jim

[Samik]

Hello Jim and everybody ,


Thanks Elias for the confirmation on Vlad's early life. Man being 18 years old and already leading an army is something. I am also looking forward for more info coming from you Emanuel ;).

Great observation on the weapon carried by Draculas' father Jim. And yeah the Cuman presence was quite heavy in the region. Like Emanuel pointed out , many Vlach rulers saw themselves as being descended from their bloodline ( we mention them so much in this thread that they must be spinning in their graves by now :D , but anyway they are a bit overlooked factor imo).

However one has to take into consideration that Vlad II was probably a western styled men at arms , using different tactics and weapons than the Cuman warriors. The reason behind him using a longsword as opposed to a sabre isnt just a thing of fashion. It is imho purely a practical one. Western knightly cavalry (or men at arms) were by no means only reserved to fighting from horseback, they often dismounted and fighted on foot , with the longsword providing an edge (pun intended) in hand to hand combat and for its better reach (as well as handling and power generation coming from the usage of both hands).

The evidence for such tactics are very apparent at Nicopolis where the French crusaders (after smashing through akinji light horse) ended up being trapped at anti-cavalry baricades (spikes coming from the ground and such) ;decided to dismount and had no problems dealing considerable damage to the ottoman footsoldiers (the real trouble came from the shower of arrows that was delivered by Sipahi's that managed to outflank them). Another great example of their versatility is a bit later painting depicting the battle of orsha ( IIRC coming from 1530’s, whlist the battle took place in the 1515)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Battle_of_Orsha_%281514-09-08%29.jpg


I cant stress how much that painting is important both for us arms and armour enthusiast , period military researchers and even HEMA community.( I would like to start a separate threat on this fabulous painting , but for now Dracula has bigger magnitude.) Notice the Polish men-at-arms (in maximilian-esque armour) not only guarding cannons/wagenburgen from behind but also being dismounted and placed on flanks and in between the canons themselves. You can see them fighting off the Muscovy Boyars , that are armed in a pretty much Tatar fashion. Which brings me back to those favourite Cumanians of ours.

They (Cumans) were much more comfortable shooting their bow from horseback and using a sabre as a reserve weapon in h2h combat or when in pursuit of fleeling (already broken) troops (pretty much like the Boyars of Muscovy , depicted at the splendid Orsha painting ). That was their "modus operandi". At this as a "nomadic horse nation" they excelled and earned their place beside (and high regard from) the hungarian king (they had as a ethnic minority priviledges that were preserved till 19th century)

http://i028.radikal.ru/0810/d9/5ac52dc3695e.jpg

(the guys on the right;the king depicted is Lajos the great; 14th century hungarian illuminated chronicle)
But I am sure you already know that by now :)

Hence one may conclude that longswords were the tools of men at arms (that like to rumble on foot as well) and the sabres are the weapon of choice for the nomadic cavalry (that liked to stay mounted and fighted at a distance; that however is a bit of oversimplification from my side , there are definetly exception but for the sake of our discussion I will leave it at that point , and might return to it in some other thread. ) I know that i might use the hungary as an example too much but I will take the liberty nonetheless and assume that Wallachia was no different, thus sabres being used by ethnic Cumans (that had probably their own smiths) and Vlach men at arms using western armament (there was AFAIK also a native Vlach light horse, I remember reading something on the web and in Heat’s book, ill post some more on the topic if it is desired and if I will be able to find it) .

At a side note , it is a general consensus that sabres are weapons coming from the steepe. I remember reading an article from a Polish-sabre fencer/historian/re-enactor Rick Orli (not sure if that is his proper name) that mentioned one viewpoint of his that changed my perception of the weapon. That was the fact that (from one of his articles on Polish sabre) the curve on the sabre actually helps one to THRUST better from horseback. (i am only paraphrasing , again i might look it up , see if I can find the article somewhere)

Anyway coming back to our herr Dracula. Like Jim mentioned the later paintings depict him somewhat erroneously in contemporary fashion with a fully developed hungarian (or polish or even a "westernish") sabre. I have even found a 17th century depiction of a Knight of the order of the dragon (that both tepes and his father were a part of; illustration from 'Histoire et Costumes des Ordres Monastiques done by Pierre Helyot)

http://images.bridgeman.co.uk/cgi-bin/bridgemanImage.cgi/600.CHT.9348820.7055475/285260.JPG

As you can see most of such paintings are decades (well actually centuries) after Dracula's (and members of the order) death. Now I would like to come back to the sabre vs longsword issue (after a rather longish diverson , that served its purpose nevertheless imo). I have already mentioned that Vlad had recieved training from its Turkish captors. However I personally dont know what that training could specificaly consist of (if anyone does , please dont hesitate to contribute). Was he trained as a Sipahi cavalryman?...Did they even let him to get hold of a sabre in the first place? What if the training was only purely on "strategic" level only. Also remember that as a son of a knight Vlad would probably be instructed in the way of longsword very very early in his life (even well before 14 years of age). There is also a similar story about a son of a Serbian despot , being handed over to Tatars as a hostage a century (or two) ago before Vlad. I dont remember the dates or names (I might check it up if you wish), but he was also planned to be placed on serbian throne back as vassal for tatars. However further bio of his life (escaped the captivity and claiming fathers throne or something in similar lines) suggest that his "knightly" character was pretty much untouched (but one might also argue that tatars had different way of handling prisoners and thus their further vassals than the ottomans ). Answers to the questions about his training with ottomans as well as clarification if he could lean more to the knightly/men at arms way (like his father) might shed more light on it.
I remember reading a similar thread on SFi that discussed similar question about Dracula. One of the posters suggestion was that when Vlad was raiding/scouting he was armed with a saber , and on the other hand when he was going into an allout battle , he would arm himself with a longsword and western armour. I liked the suggestion but would argue at some points. For instance why would a nobleman(and a head of kingdom) have to engage in some skirmishing/raiding when a band of Cumans would do the job just fine? Secondly, why would he need to wield a sabre for such occasion? It is shown in both pictorial evidence (Niccole's work on medieval russians) and in Goliath fechtbuch that fencing/fighting with a longsword from horseback was perfectly normal and I dont see any particular reason why would he have to swap for a saber for such particular purpouse.

Sorry for diverting a bit off topic and focusing a bit too much on Vlad


Cheers ,
Samuel

Edit: Sorry Jim I wasnt able to resize the picture (its gigantic and it just takes ages). Also resizing it would imo just make it too.. intangible i guess. Instead I just posted the link to the wikipedia gallery. Sorry for the inconvenience

Edit 2 : This is the part of the painting that I had in mind (as one can get lost in the picture , as its ..simply big) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Polish-Russian_battle_1514.PNG , notice the Polish men at arms "at work"

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent post Samuel!!!! and its fantastic the detail you include, well written and explained.
Any way you could resize that fabulous battle scene? I dont have cinemascope on my computer here so I get dizzy trying to scroll back and forth to read the text :)

Thanks so much, this topic gets better and better, and its great to finally begin to comprehend some of the complexity of this history.

All the best,
Jim

[pallas]

a tidbit on the vlachs not being a "warlike people"

the brothers peter, asen, and kaloyan who defeated the byzantines and refounded the bulgarian empire from 1185-1200 AD where vlachs and much of their infantry where also vlachs

[TVV]

a tidbit on the vlachs not being a "warlike people"

the brothers peter, asen, and kaloyan who defeated the byzantines and refounded the bulgarian empire from 1185-1200 AD where vlachs and much of their infantry where also vlachs

Most of this is factually incorrect - the brothers Teodor and Asen were small nobles in the Roman Empire. They may have been of Vlach, Cuman or most likely Bulgarian origin - all we know is that they were Christians and that they were located in Moesia, which is nowadays Bulgaria, with their domains in the Hemus mountains.

Upon the success of their rebellion, they clearly demosntrated that the goal was the reestablishment of the Bulgarian state, as they were crowned as Bulgarian Tsars and Teodor assumed the name of Petar, which was the name of the last Bulgarian ruler in the 11th century. Nothing ever indicated that they thought of themselves as Vlachs, and the state they reestablished was clearly Bulgarian.

As for the infantry, I am afraid we have no certain figures to be able to claim one way or another. One needs to keep in mind that during the Middle Ages chroniclers had little interest in correctly identifying the ethnicity of their adversaries, and Eastern Roman chroniclers in particular used any names they thought were offensive enough. Petar and Asen's men are therefore called Bulgarians, Vlachs, Skythians, Barbarians, rebels, bandits, etc.

But it is correct to point out that the Vlachs of those times were anything but peaceful, and many of them most certainly served in the Bulgarian armies of the late 12th and early 13th centuries.

Regards,
Teodor

[Gonzalo G]

I don´t think the ´heavliy armored´europeans from this period and place (Wallachia) were not distinct from the turks or indians, since the armour of the common soldier, cavaly or infantryman, seems to be consisted mainly by maille and plaques or scales, just as the turkish armour was. Only a few nobleman apparently had plaque armour, and not many enough to form a special corps in their armies, with tactics adapted to this kind of armour. I agree with Samik, since I think the first magyar sabre model from Kronckew came probably from the avars and not the turks, and it was an old model already in the 15th Century in Hungary, judging by those found in the exhumations of graves from the 10th Century in the area of Hungary, according with Oakeshott. Some of them are very similar with the one attributed to a Charlemagne´s property. This sabers are the result of a much earlier influence from the east, and not necessarily from the turks. The second sabre from Krockew is turkish style, with the yelman and the languets.

The poor Bram Stoker confussed (and mixed) Vlad II Dracul with his son, Vlad III Tepes, which is typical of the occidental misunderstanding about the history of Central Europe and the orient.

Mircea or Mirça the Old, father of Vlad II Dracul, is represented in a statue (or coffin sculpture) with a straight sword. Jancu of Kunedouara or Iancu Hunedoara, ruler of Transylvania, is represented in a statue with a straight sword medieval european style, and with a plaque armour. Just remember that Jancu was contemporary to Vlad II and III. In fact, according with some historians, he participated in some way in the killing of Vlad II and Mirça II, his eldest son, commited by orders of Jan Hunyadi of Hungary (general of the new hungarian king, Vladislav III, Who had just broked a peace treaty with the turks), and some nobleman and saxon merchants from Wallachia.

Jancu also latter appointed Vlad III Tepes as governor of Wallachia, in which post he only stayed for a month, since the King of Hungary removed him as soon he began to impale the enemies of his dinasty (some nobleman and the merchant saxons, allied with the hungarians), according with the same historians. You have to take on account that the hungarian and german sources do not agree in the enumeration of facts with the wallachian-rumanian historians, since Hungary had historic pretentions to rule at least part of the area of actual Rumania (Transylvania and Wallachia, mainly), meanwhile the princes or voivodas from at least Wallachia, fought all time very hard to maintain their sovereignty and independence from both the hungarians and the ottoman turks, not doubting in using temporary alliances with one or another, according with the political or military needs of the moment. For this reason, you can find many contradictions in the enumerations of the historical facts surrounding all this wallachian dinasty, including the facts of Vlad III´s death, since some historians say he was assesinated, and others that he died in battle . And despite the confussions of Bram Stoker, Vlad Tepes only born and lived some years in exile in Transylvania but he and his family are assimilated mainly to Wallachia´s history, and his castle was constructed in the last principality. The history of this period is not, as many want to describe, the history of Europe Christendom against the Muslim Ottoman (the good and the evil), but the history of feudal lords (christian or not), trying to extend their personal dominions to the expense of other´s. Religion always served as a pretext or as a mean to gain political power.

The area (the Balkans, Hungary, Transylvania, Moldava, Wallachia, Bulgaria et al) neverthless, had oriental influences from early many different ways. Huns were there for a period, but they seem to have used straight swords. Magyars and Mongols (Tatar turko-mongols, to be more precise) were other latter influence over them. Maybe the kazar empire had also a role in this, but I still have no information about the type of swords used by the kazars. Earlier turkish influences, not ottoman, cannot be discarded. The blaci from Transylvania are said to be originally the Vlakhs, or also the Bulaqs, another turkish group. The siculi or Székelys moved from Hungary to Transylvania from the 12th Century onwards and were from probable turkish origin. The bulgars established an empire before the 15th Century with the help of oriental ethnic groups, carrying more oriental influences. The Qumans-Kipçak, form turkish origins, and it seems with the probable inclusion of a small contingent from iranian origins (please see István Vásáry, Cumans and Tatars. Oriental Military in the Pre-Ottoman Balkans 1185-1365, Cambridge University Press, New York, 2005) were also present. The pechengs, also from a turkish origin, also settled in Hungary. In fact, those areas are geographically european, but racially and culturally are a mixture of european and oriental elements, though in their political and militar strugle to be independent sovereign states they were european-orientated at the end, even though in the Balkans some muslim population remains to this day.

According with some sources, the one who arrived with a turkish army and ruled as a puppet, was Vlad III´s brother, Radu, and not Vlad. Following this sources, Vlad and his brother were hostages with the turks as a result of a Vlad II´s secret treaty with them, which was the cause of his killing when hungarians discovered it. And meanwhile Vlad escaped from the turks and ran to Wallachia, his brother the young Radu ´The Handsome´, was acused of having a strange intimate relation with the sultan, who latter enthroned him for a short period of time in which Wallachia declined into the service of the ottoman turks. Vlad was appointed governor of Wallachia for the first time (he was governor of Wallachia three times, according with the same sources) by Jancu, and not by the turks. Matías Corvinus was the king who deprived Vlad III from his corporal liberty, though he was not strictly ´incarcerated´ or jailed, but ´arrested´, as he lived having a castle and it´s surroundings as limits for his movements, and was treated princely.

I have seen representations of Vlad III with a plaque armour and a straight sword, but I think this representation was not made during his life (I have only a video with some of this representations, not the kind of images to bring to this discussion). Maybe the straight sword was a symbol of the anti-turkish resistance and a christian element of identity. Stefan the Great was cousin of Vlad III, and they, along with Matias Corvinus, son of Jancu of Kunedouara, lived together in the same castle for several years before they were kings. If Stefan´s sword is straight, it can give us a clue to answer this point.There is also a painting in the Esterházy castle representing Vlad III armed with a sabre, turkish style, but it was made in the 17th Century. It seems that all, but one, were representations made after his death.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Vlad_tepes_painting.jpg

It seems that the charges and countless stories agains Vlad III were propeled by the hungarians and germans, who were united in their interests over Wallachia. And also by the turks, as he was their implacable enemy. But the version of Vlad III Tepes enthroned by the sultan, is contradictory with the ferocity he always showed against them, which finally earned him the support of the King of Hungary and the Pope during his last mandate. The enemies of Vlad III, were not exempted of making alliances and peace treaties, or the paying of tributes to the ottoman turks, even against christian princes or kings. Germany, in fact, established a friendship alliance with the ottoman at least to the end of the WWI, against christian european countries. All comes to politics and power.


Sorry if I am a little chaotic in my writting, but I don´t have enough time online to make corrections, and I don´t have more bibliographical references at hand in this moment.
Regards

Gonzalo

PD: The brothers Teodor and Asen are called ´roman´ (christian) in some old sources. In others, they are not. Please see the same book from Vásáry. It seems history has been muddled by political interests, then and now.

[Emanuel]

Looks like I've been missing out on a lot of fine discussion. Work keeps me busy... I need a history refresher as well. Thanks Gonzalo for your great post, I'm impressed. I'll only correct a few mentions.

Iancu de Hunedoara (1387 - d. 1456) was contemporary with Vlad II Dracul (1390 - 1447). Iancu supported Vladislav II to the Valahian throne (hence your confusion with Vlad II, very similar names :) ). You are quite right about the assassination of Vlad II and his elder son Mircea.

In 1442, Sultan Murad II requested that Vlad III Tepes and his younger brother Radu reside in Constantinople as political hostages. They stayed there until 1447, when Vlad III, aged 17, was given an Ottoman cavalry and infantry contingent to take the Valahian throne from Vladislav II. His first reign was short-lived, since the boiers still backed Vladislav II and helped him retake the throne. Tepes finally cemented his claim to the throne in 1456, and began his famous assault on the boier nobility.

Vlad III stopped paying tribute to the Porte towards 1460, and formed an alliance with Matei Corvin (son of Iancu de Hunedoara) of Hungary, backed by the Pope. After initial successes, Tepes is once again "betrayed" by the boiers, who support Radu - now backed by Sultan Mehmet II.
In 1462 Tepes marches north into Transilvania to rendez-vous with Matei Corvin and his forces. Corvin decides to annul the alliance with Tepes and "arrests" him. Vlad III is taken as a political hostage, and for the next thirteen years resides in Budapesta. In that time he marries a second time to a cousin of Matei Corvin. In 1475-76 he returns to the Valahian throne for a very short period. He either dies in battle in Bucharest at the end of 1476 or is assassinated, depending on the sources.

There are paintings of him in western and eastern dress. Once again I don't think he discriminated too much in his choice of arms. Valahian armies at the time were mostly drawn from the peasantry and equipment was improvised. The boier nobility provided the cavalry, and they could be expected to have better equipment, although not necessarily standard.

In the time of Mircea the Old (1355, 1418), Valahian tactics relied heavily on archer corps. Arms manufacture was somewhat limited, and much was supposedly purchased from the Saxons of Transilvania. As I stated earlier, the collection in the National Military museum demonstrate the contemporary use of both western swords (Stefan the Great) and curved sabres.

My statement that Valahians were not warlike is based on the fact that they never developed a cohesive martial tradition similar to that of Poland and Hungary. One point in favour of this is the apparent lack of development of sword typology, as is seen in Polish and Hungaryan sabres. Later in the 16th and 17th centuries, eastern weapons become more prevalent. By the 18th and 19th centuries, western European, particualrly French and German, become dominant. Teodor, I totally agree with your statement about Vlachs participating in Bulgarian and other armed conflicts in the 11th-13th centuries, but we are talking here about the 15th. There is documented Vlach presence far south of the Danube early on in the second millenium. IIRC there was a town known as Vlachopolis (Blachopolis) somewhere north of Constantinople...I'll check the source on that. Those Vlach populations that did not move back north of the Danube were more or less assimilated by other ethnicities and nationalities. The Aromanians and the Mechedons in Bulgaria and Greece, the Vlasky in Serbia, for example.

One of Romania's national mythos is the fighting peasant who responds to the Lord's (as in ruler) call to fight off invaders. Much of Romanian/Valahian military history is rooted in defense against foreign incursion rather than expansionist policy. Hence, my characterisation of Vlachs as not "warlike"...perhaps not the most appropriate word as most peoples at the time had to be warlike to survive...:shrug:

Samuel, one cannot really distinguish between Cuman and Valahian actions and tactics in the 15th century. By that time Cumans had throroughly mixed with local populations in Valahia as well as surrounding countries (there were large Cuman populations in Hungary as well). People were thoroughly mixed then, with many Valahians, Hungarians and Bulgarians inter-marrying. There is still some pretty feisty debate about Iancu de Hunedoara and Matei Corvin, and the family's mixed Hungarian-Vlach origins. Given this mixed history, I'm saddened by the century-old Romanian-Hugarian political and cultural confrontation.

Emanuel

[Emanuel]

I took a history book out of storage and will scan relevant pics tonight.

In the meantime, here is a painting of Mihai the Brave (1558-1601). Notice the sabres and the garb.

Contemporary and later sources variably show him wielding axe, mace or sabre. I've never seen him portrayed with straight sword though.

[Emanuel]

Here is a 17th century sword, having belonged to Constantin Brancoveanu (1654 - 1714).

[Emanuel]

One quick thought that came to mind. Both Vlad Tepes and his predecessors are documented to have used guerilla and ambush tactics, since invariably they were faced with larger armies.

Basarab I defeated the Hungarian king Charles I in 1330 by ambushing his large forces in a mountain pass.

Vlad Tepes led a night attack agianst Mehmet II near Targoviste in 1462, and continually harassed his superior troups during his retreat.

The oral history I got from parents and family and the little history I read often re-iterates the theme of Dacian and later Vlach armies resisting invasions in the Carpathian mountains.

[TVV]

Here is a 17th century sword, having belonged to Constantin Brancoveanu (1654 - 1714).

Very nice sword, even thougbh it is much later than the discussed period. The blade looks like those blades with the Virgin Mary, for which Astvatsaturian claims were produced in Constantinople. There is a similar one I think in the catalogue for Rizsrad Janiak's collection.
It makes sense that high quality sabre blades with Christian symbols were produced for nobles from Orthodox and Catholic countires, whose aramament was under ehavy Eastern influence, such as Russia, the Danube Principalities and Poland.
Regards,
Teodor

[Gonzalo G]

Sorry, Teodore, I read more carefully your statements about the brothers Peter and Asen in home, and you are right. At first, I understood that you said they were roman, but you didn´t. Yes, they were were members of the provincial nobilty in the Roman Empire, though not from roman origin.

You see, I have but a very small time online, sometimes I read too quickly and make a likewise too quick response post, or I save some web pages in my PC, I read them latter in home, and days after I answer in the the forum...just to find that then, somebody says, "hey, that was already answered in the post number 3!!"...I must be more careful, since confusions and writting mistakes are multiplied in this rush.

I agree with all your statements from that post. Though when I answer maybe I will find that you already answered to my previous note. My apologies.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Gonzalo G]

Very interesting, Emanuel! I think you have access to a better sources than I, beign rumanian. I would be driven crazy (yes, still more) in that bibliotéque of yours, in the Toronto University. Yet, there remains many contradictions in the different versions of the history of that period and place. Even the marxist historians from that area seem to repeat old myths. You have to peel layer by layer the facts, versions and interpretations to get the hard core of it.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Emanuel]

Being Romanian does not imply being knowledgeable about Romania, Gonzalo :)

I left Romania in grade 2. All I know is from my family, as I stated, and what I've studied on my own. I'm horrible with dates and I often need refreshers.

The monstrous UT library and I have become strangers lately (a recurring theme in my life)...I spend my time studying urban planning and city council decisions.

I quite agree about historians Gonzalo. Beginning in the 18th century, and particualrly in the 19th, there was great interest in the past. Romanian nationalism required the crafting of a heroic, almost-mythical past and facts were naturally bent to conform to the desired narrative.

All the best!
Emanuel

[Emanuel]

Here we go, some pics from 15th and turn of 16th century...from the top:

- 15th century flail and crossbow from Sibiu
- Cavalry of Mihai the Brave
- Mid-16th century war hammer and early 16th century mace
- Fresco from the walls of Sucevita monastery church, end-15th century - this one's interesting...cavalry in maille armed with lances, pikemen with polearms, swords seem to be straight, can't tell too well. The armor looks Turkish though, doesn't it?
The inscription at the top is romanian in church slavonic, if cyrillic readers can transliterate, i can read what it says.
- The sword of Stefan the Great, now in the Topkapi.
- Courtier and archer from the time of Alexander the Good (1400-1432). Moldovan prince, but relevant nonetheless.

[TVV]

Gonzalo, no problems. There was nothing wrong about your note, and Vasary is one of the best accepted authors on the subject of Eastern Nomads and their influence on the Balkans in the 12th to 15th centuries.

But we should get back on topic. Manuel, I am afraid the inscription is not in Romanian, but in a Slavic language which is quite similar to Russian. I can only read the last part, which says "and with charriots". I also think I can see the name "Israel" there as well, and I suspect the crowned figure says Pharaoh. Of course, Romanian was influenced by Slavic languages, so the inscription might be in Romanian, though I doubt it. I suspect the fresco represents a scene from the Exodus.

It is interesting that the charriots look similar to wagenburgs, which as we know were used by the Bohemians in the army of Vladislav III of Poland at Varna in 1444. It illustrates how artists painted what they were familiar with themselves, and so this fresco is probably a good presentation of armament and costume from the times.

After staring at the fresco, I can see a lot of maces and hammers, but the only sword I see is found on a foot soldiers behind the Pharaoh, and it looks curved.

Thank you for sharing these pictures, Emanuel.

Regards,
Teodor

[Emanuel]

Thanks Teodor,

Sucevita is in Romanian Moldova, where Russian influence was strong. I assumed it was still Romanian because at the time the liturgy used the Cyrillic alphabet and Slavonic. I've also seen Romanian written in cyrillic.

I have a number of other devotional paintings with scenes from the lives of saints which also depict characters in what seems like period clothes. Perhaps I'll scan those as well.

I've looked closer at the fresco and you're right about the lack of swords. To me it looked like the soldiers on the bottom left carried swords, but I can see axe-heads and maces now.

All the best,
Emanuel

[Samik]

Hi gents ,
wow a pretty interesting discussion we have here ;)
Im gonna add some points to your contributions.
Just like Teodor and Gonzalo (great posts by the way guys I am learing a lot from you here, as always) I have to mention Vasary’s book, that is a "must-have" when one is interested in the history of those medieval nomadic people that inhabited parts of europe.

Emanuel thanks for your exhaustive reply. The splendid picture labelled " Ein Reuter aufs der Walachi" looks very , very (almost exactly) like the "Rac"serb-hussars from the Orsa painting http://www.myarmoury.com/images/features/pic_hussar01.jpg , note the "winged" shield , which Turks called "Rumelian" and westerners "Hungarian" (IIRC, the shields are also represented in Ottoman/German art. Fechtbucher "gladiatora" shows two fencers armed with it , but in a smaller "target-like" scale. The turkish miniature painting of Mohacs Battle also shows Hungarian troops/cavalry armed with such shields as well).

As for the other painting (the fresco) , could you determine the author of the piece? I suspect that because of the "cyrilics" it might have been inspired by similar pieces from Muscovy (or the other southern Russian principalities, not sure which one bordered with Romanian Moldova) and Russians were quite fond of wearing Conical helmets , which were by no means only reserved to Turks (AFAIK , central asian "steepe" nomads, such as the various tatar khaganates ; Mamluks and Byzantine troops wore them as well)... anyway just speculating. If you have more scans of some such frescoes please do post them , I would be very interested in seeing them. :)

Going back to the overall picture, until recently I was somewhat unaware of the military structure of the medieval Balkans. I have always assumed that the military technology/tactics were very similar and somewhat mirrored the armamament and tactics of the "Latins". As it turned out I was (very) wrong. What suprised me was Heath’s osprey book on the Byzantine later period (that covers 13-14 and 15. century). Not only were the "native" Balkan people (of non-nomadic stock) armed in a similar fashion to nomads (composite bow, both sabres and straight swords , lances, shields of various designs etc.) but served for the emperor in units in which they were grouped together with nomads themselves. Whats even more interesting is that the further "subjugation" of Balkans by Ottomans seemed to be so "smooth" because of the fact that the Byzantine military style of troop commanding was very similar to that of Ottoman (parralles can be seen for example in etymology: "ottoman voynuks" - "balkan slavic vojniks" , or "byzantine greek Allagator" - "Turkish Lagator" etc.) AFAIK, The partial "latinization" and western men-at-arms seemed to have been more present in the western parts of balkans (like serbia , that according to Heath responded to Ottoman threat by fielding italian style arms and equipment.) The "Saxons" in Wallachia are an exception indeed. I dont remember however reading much about Saxon cavalry, or men-at-arms.
A query at the end: was the sword of Stephen the Great produced by local (moldovian) blacksmiths or was it a saxon/hungarian import?

Cheers,
Samuel


Edit: A note on the topic of similarity betwen Serbs and Vlachs that I have (somewhat) touched upon earlier. A splendid article (sadly) written in Czech http://www.livinghistory.cz/node/28 , that muses about the wagenburg tactics also mentions a piece of writing from late 15th century Order of Vlčkov : „A což byste Rácuov jměli a Vlachuov, té zběři, ješto by se k šikování nehodili, ty pusťte všecky na harc a jednomu poručte rozumnému, aby jimi potiskal nepřátel…“

It is written in old Bohemian and says something in the lines of avoiding in giving a free hand in command of the hired Vlach and Rác (Serbian) horsemen (presumably to counter the turks) because of their behaviour (they are literally named "zběř" , similar to modern Czech "sběř" which means rabble/riffraff; which is hardly suprising as light cavalry was always accussed for lack of morals) and instead to hire someone "reasonable" to command them instead (presumably a countryman I guess). As you can see the passage pretty much treats them as a similar/same style of unit (which mayhap points to the common Balkan/Byzantine military heritage).

[Emanuel]

Hi Samuel,

The shield did bring images of hussars to mind. They certainly look graceful. There is no info on Stefan's sword, AFAIK. Being a princely sword, we can assume a high quality smith and craftsman. Whether from a local or foreign production centre, who knows :shrug: A stylistic study of the pommel and its incription might however identify whether it was produced in Moldova or elsewhere. I've ordered a book on the crafts and manufactures of Valahia and Moldova in the middle ages. It's in Romanian, but I will translate and post any relevant bits.

It's also impossible to determine the painters of the frescos, but the style is associated with "Ioan the Painter" and his brother "Sofronie from Suceava". The monastery was built in 1581 by Gheorghe Movila. The fresco need not have basis on Russian exampla...rather both Russian and Vlach/Moldovan styles are heavily influenced by Byzantine ones.

Slavonic was adopted as the liturgical language upon the conversion of Vlachs to Orthodox Christianity. It was used in most church writings, often along concurrently with Latin. Due to proximity, I imagine it was used more frequently in Moldova.

The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium's entry on Vlachs mentions their presence on Byzantine territory. They subsist on goat and sheep herding, and as mercenaries. The herding aspect, at least, is still part of Romanian mythos and identity. The shepherd in the mountains, armed with axe and staff.
Apparently there is uncertainty on whether the reference "Blachoi" (the v and b are interchangeable) refers specifically to Vlachs, or Bulgarians, who shared characteristics and lived in the same area. This attests to the further ethnic mixing that happened in that time. One point of particualr interest to me is the latinization of Dacians/Vlachs. There is no answer to the debate on whether Dacians were latinized by the (very limited) Roman occupation, or during their temporary migration south of the Dabune into Byzantine territory, or even whether they already spoke a form of vulgate latin before Roman conquest. Somehow the latin persisted to the present day despite massive bastardization with slavic, turkish, greek, hungarian, german and french :shrug:

To get back to the topic at hand though - 15th century Vlach swords - I will scan more paintings tonight.

All the best,
Emanuel

[Gonzalo G]

Being Romanian does not imply being knowledgeable about Romania, Gonzalo :)
Emanuel


Of course, Emanuel, but having your passion over this subjects, and the knowledge of the romanian languaje, you can access many sources many of us can´t. Thank you for the images, very interesting material!!
Regards

Gonzalo

[pallas]

in the book, vasary put forward the three most common theories about the brother's ethnic identities and he seemed to favor the theory that the brothers where vlachs who had some cuman/kipchak ancestry as evidenced by one of the brothers having the turkic name "asen" (and that some sort of ethnic connection was one of the reasons the brothers found ready support from the kipchaks/cumans north of the danube) and that the vlachs, if i remember right, where to a degree ethnically integrated with the bulgars.

anyways its one of the more fascinating locations/periods of european history, where europen and asiatic steppe cultures where constantly in flux.


on a semi related note, ive been wondering how the kipchak/cumans became heavily armored cavalry as mamelukes when they had no tradition of it on the crimean steppes??? was this a tradition handed down from the ayyubids/fatimids and the kipchak/cumans where trained to adapt to it or did the kipchaks actually have a tradition of havily armored cavalry that im not aware of? sorry if this is a dumb question, ive been on a quest lately to find good historical reading material on the mamelukes (mainly the bahri dynasty, it seems the circassian burj dynasty was an era of decline for the mamelukes) but havent had much luck.

[TVV]

on a semi related note, ive been wondering how the kipchak/cumans became heavily armored cavalry as mamelukes when they had no tradition of it on the crimean steppes??? was this a tradition handed down from the ayyubids/fatimids and the kipchak/cumans where trained to adapt to it or did the kipchaks actually have a tradition of havily armored cavalry that im not aware of? sorry if this is a dumb question, ive been on a quest lately to find good historical reading material on the mamelukes (mainly the bahri dynasty, it seems the circassian burj dynasty was an era of decline for the mamelukes) but havent had much luck.

The Cumans, as evidenced by archaeological finds, had a tradition of fielding armored cavalry. There are some good studies on Cuman arms and armor by Russian authors - Kirpichnikov, Gorelik and Khudyakov are some names that come to mind. Gutowski's book in Polish and English on Tatar Arms also has examples of Cuman armor and helmets.
Regards,
Teodor

[Samik]

Hi all ,

I came across a pretty neat website dealing with orthodox iconography / fresco's and the like http://www.orthodoxphotos.com

There is a number of wall paintings and fresco's from Romania that depicts warriors armed with swords. I may be shooting a bit blind here as unfortunately most of those pieces are not given a date (and one cannot be sure if they are relevant to 15th century). Any help from you guys in dating those marvelous works of art would be helpful :)

Here we go :

Stills from the life of St. John the New - Voronet Monastery Fresco - Romania :

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Icons_and_Frescoes/Frescoes/Voronet_Monastery/20.jpg

Note both the sabre and hand-and-a-half sword with somewhat unique looks (i.e. The "green" part on the sword ; the "sword-like" hilt on a sabre + the somewhat strange/intriguing shape of the yelmen)



http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Icons_and_Frescoes/Frescoes/Voronet_Monastery/18.jpg


Blade grabbing here :D , do however note the somewhat shorter lenght on the crossguard (not that it would be out of place in the "latin" world but nevertheless..)



http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Icons_and_Frescoes/Frescoes/Voronet_Monastery/19.jpg


Here we have an interesting figure armed with both sabre and a composite bow; take note of his somewhat "fancy" hat. Could this be one of the infamous Kipcak/Cuman people ?

......to be continued

[Samik]

Part 2 :


Moving onto Sucevita Monastery Fresco - Romania

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Icons_and_Frescoes/Frescoes/Sucevita_Monastery/16.jpg

Unfortunately this one is a bit smaller. Note the Turks, that are apparently slaughtering some folks. Two of them are seemingly from the Jannisary corps , as their pointy headwear indicates. The man in the middle seems to use a straight sword in a two handed way (?) , whereas the Jannisary on the right uses what seems to be a sabre-proper.


http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Icons_and_Frescoes/Frescoes/Sucevita_Monastery/10.jpg

Probably a "Warrior Saint". His sword bears a great resemblance to another one drawn in a fresco from Pec, Serbia. (The one i posted in the "Volga Bulgarians" thread)


Next comes

St. Dimitrie Church Frescoes, Suceava, Romania



http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Icons_and_Frescoes/Frescoes/St._Dumitru_Church/3.jpg

I am guessing probably another one of those "warrior-saints" ; his sword however is very interesting ; note the slightly curved crossguard and slender blade, that shows a striking resemblance to some of the more wester late medieval/early renaissance cut and thrust swords

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Icons_and_Frescoes/Frescoes/St._Dumitru_Church/4.jpg

No swords shown , but the picture is rich on polearms and armour. Note the man-at-arms at the front that carries a composite or even a longbow?(!)


The last (but not least) duo of pictures comes from

Probota Monastery Frescoes, Romania


http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Icons_and_Frescoes/Frescoes/Probota_Monastery/4.jpg

A scene of beheading. Note the gilded hilt and the following cleaning of the sword blade.


http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Icons_and_Frescoes/Frescoes/Probota_Monastery/5.jpg

A beautiful fresco. This one containts both the "Romanesque" armour , circular ( similar to kalkan-turkish) shield, spears but most importantly swords. The military figure in the center seems to carry ,judging from the somewhat canted hilt a sabre (or if you take into consideration the lenght of the hilt it could even be a long/hand n a half sword?). The last thing to note is the angel under Christ's left arm , that is definately holding a sabre (unfortunately the picture is a bit small , but one can see the gilded crossguard and a dark hilt/pommel)

Enjoy folks , there is much more at http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Icons_and_Frescoes/Frescoes/index.shtml , its a pity though that no dates are given. :shrug:

All the best ,
Samuel

[Emanuel]

Haha I was going to scan pics from this monastery. Voronet was built during the reign of Stefan the Great, and the frescos are contemporary, so end 15th century.

The second picture you show Samuel, is from the life of St. Nicholas.

Here are two from the martyrdom of St. Stephen. It represents the trial and stoning of Stephen in Jerusalem, but the authoritative figure, Saul of Tarsus, is dressed in Ottoman fashion. The mob that "stones" Stephen is here shown with clubs. The hat that sort of falls to the side is actually Romanian/VLach/Moldovan. Another hat type is conical slanting backwards. That also has quite a bit of history in eastern Europe.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ro/6/6a/Martiriul_Sf_Ioan_cel_Nou_-_part_1.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ro/5/54/Martiriul_Sf_Ioan_cel_Nou_(Voronet)_-_part_2.JPG

Emanuel

[Emanuel]

I found a number of studies on mediaeval arms in the Romanian principalities. They corroborate that the peasant army was armed with axes, maces, bows and polearms, and only the boiers had swords. One author mentions that these were produced in Brasov and that they had a "distinctly Romanian look" but the fool neglects to include pictures of said swords :shrug: .

Another study on arms and armour in Transylvania demonstrates that weapons were most strongly influenced by western Saxon tradition and were of the straight double-edged variety. Only much later did curved sabres catch on in Transylvania. This leaves out Valahia...again I'm inclined to think that both sabres and straight swords were equally available to Vlad III and his contermporaries.

I'm waiting on another book on 15th century crafts and manufacturing.

Emanuel

[Gonzalo G]

on a semi related note, ive been wondering how the kipchak/cumans became heavily armored cavalry as mamelukes when they had no tradition of it on the crimean steppes??? was this a tradition handed down from the ayyubids/fatimids and the kipchak/cumans where trained to adapt to it or did the kipchaks actually have a tradition of havily armored cavalry that im not aware of? sorry if this is a dumb question, ive been on a quest lately to find good historical reading material on the mamelukes (mainly the bahri dynasty, it seems the circassian burj dynasty was an era of decline for the mamelukes) but havent had much luck.


I agree with Teodor. Furthermore, we must be careful to define the kipchaks, or other nomad warrior people, in base of exclusively ethnic considerations. Usually the nomad warriors were grouped as confederations of tribes of diverse origins. Attila´s warriors were not only huns, but also alans and goths, among others. In the introduction of the Codex Cumanicus it has been said that ‘…the question of Cuman-Qipçaq ethnogenesis has yet to be completely unraveled. Even the name for this tribal confederation is by no means entirely clear.’

‘A variety of sources equate them, in turn, with the Qangli, one of the names by which the easternmost, Central Eurasian branch of the Cuman-Qipcaq confederation was known….These tribes included Turkic, Mongol and Iranian elements or antecedents. ‘

Some tribes of the kipchak confederation probably came from the border with China and had a wide contact with chinese military inventions, and also had relations with the Gökturk Khaganate, which unified in a single confederation almost all the nomad tribes of eastern Central Asia. Since old times the turks used lamellar ‘heavy’ armour, as it can be seen in some representations of turkic warriors from that period. Turks were also known for their specialty in iron working. The first bugar capital, Pliska, with strong turkic presence and mostly, but not exclusively, due to it, was an important armory production center.

Kipchaks occupied a great territory of the eurasian steppe, and also had contact with the kazars, another confederation integrated with turkic elements, among others, which used to wear helmets, maille hauberks and lamellar cuirasses. Contacts with the military technology of Bizantium also should be taken on account. Members of the Bahri dynasty, the first dynasty of Mamluks in Egypt, were Kipchaks, which gives us an idea of the armour used by them.

Yes, they knew very well and used the arms and armour of the heavy cavalry, though the light mounted archer still was important in their ranks.
Eurasian-Central Asian nomads were not as primitive as we can think. In fact, they were very sophisticated in many ways. Ways related with war and survival in a very competitive environment. Many arrived to the occident because they were the less apt and were expelled from the steppe by the best, and even so many times they seemed invincible before the eyes of the occidental peoples. They carried more than few military inventions much time before the europeans knew about them, including siege machines, military technologies associated with the cavalry and the horse, suspension systems to carry the sword and an the unsurpassable techniques related with the bow and the military use of the archery. It has been questioned if the nomads made their swords. The turks made them, very aptly. Central Asia also seems to have been one of the old and few producers of wootz in the world.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Samik]

Hello again ,

Not really Wallachian but perhaps its interesting to point out the Thuroczy chronicle (dated circa 1490) , that shows a scene from The Battle of Baia
(Moldvabányai csata in hungarian) that pitted Stefan cel Mare against Mattias Corvinus.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Kingdom_of_Hungary_against_Moldovans_flag_in_battl e.jpg


Note the men-at-arms on Hungarian (left) side armed mostly with poleaxes (dismounted) and lances (mounted).

The Moldovians have mounted boiers (?) armed with lances (note the pointy helmets that contrast with the more "germanic" sallets of the hungarian soldiers) and straight (long)swords (the cavalryman on the rightmost side).

The most interesting is the Moldovian foot , that is armed in a sword and shield/target fashion. The blades on the weapons are curved (and it also appears that they have crossguards , hence they cannot be considered "short polearms" and the like) , that could indicate they might be .. well sabres ??

Cheers ,
Samuel


P.S: Im going on holidays for a week and a half , so have fun without me :) ; I also hope for and look forward to see more Fresco pics and info from you Emanuel :D ;)

[Gonzalo G]

On the left side the arms and armour looks very german-ish to me.

[robinpeck]

I visited Romania in the mid 1970's, toured all around the coutry in a car and on the way back to the capital I remember climbing a small mountain in the Transylvanian Alps north of Bucharesti...it was a total ruin except for one small building in which sat a government official. On the wall was a portrait painting of Vlad the Impaler (Draculea) and in the center of the room was a glass case containing what was labeled as Vlad's sword. I forgot my camera in the carpark at the bottom of the mountain...and I don't remember what it looked like except that I have a vaque memory of it being a sabre type.

St. Stephen of Hungary's sword is obviously a Norse import.

[Samik]

Apologies for the thread necromancy but I stumbled upon this painting of Dürer titled "Die welsche Trophäe" . Its a part of the famous Triumph of Maximilian, in which other "trophies" are also included (e.g. equipment of a Bohemian pavisier or an early Hungarian hussar etc)
I have only recently came to a realization that "welsche" actually means Wallachian in German!

The piece is dated 1518:


http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6487/2530075a.jpg

I recommend checking the original in high-resolution
http://www.zeno.org/Kunstwerke/B/D%C3%BCrer,+Albrecht%3A+Der+gro%C3%9Fe+Triumphwage n,+Detail%3A+Die+welsche+Troph%C3%A4e+%5B2%5D?hl=w elsche

(just click on the picture to enlarge)

Its arguably an "exotic" take on a fairly standard European man-at-arms kit. Yet the addition of the strange closed-helmet as well as the round shield makes it somewhat more original. The lance appears to be of the classic western knightly type. The sword has a huge pommel as well as strangely curved quillions, but nothing that would be out of place in south-eastern Europe (there are similar arming swords in both Kingdom of hungary , Balkans as well as northern Italy; see my post in the "genoese/pisan/venetian weapons" thread ), note however the two big "ears" that the bollock-dagger has on its pommel (again a typical feature on weapons coming from SE-europe; Rumelian Yatagans as well as Daggers "ala stradiota" feature them as well).

Overall a splendid painting and very close to the period in question, I can't understand how is it possible that I haven't came across it earlier.

Regards,
Samuel

[Matchlock]

- 15th century flail and crossbow from Sibiu


Hi Emanuel,

Could you please give the full bibliographic data of the book that you got that picture from?

Thank you in advance,
Michael

[Emanuel]

Hi Michael,

My apologies for the late response, I havn't been very active on the forum and I didn't see your post.
The source of the images is a small picture book called "Mileniul Romanesc, 1000 de Ani de Istorie in Imagini, Editura Litera, 2004". This is not a historical book and I'm weary of its accuracy. It doesn't contain much information.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Lucian]

Hi to all of you,
it looks like now we are two Romanians on this.
I have seen that you had a lot of comments and also shared a lot of information.
History it is one of my hobbies for the last 25 years.
I just want to make a few points here.
The Cumans (especially the Black Cumans) were having some impact in Wallachia. Negru Voda (Negru means Black and voda is a shorter form of the voievod), one of the first known rullers in Wallachia is coming from the area of the Fagaras which it is a known area where many Black Cuman settled and as you can see in the map, some villages still keep some interesting names like Comanestii and Voievodenii.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Tara_Fagarasului.svg/800px-Tara_Fagarasului.svg.png
The Cuman contribution to the establishment of the Wallachian state it is a topic extremely debated between the historians even today (during the communism era it was a taboo subject). In the battle of Posada between Basarab's Wallachian army and Charles's Hungarian army appear a ... recurved bow or Tartars bow as it is known in Wallachia. Also the Byzantine chronicler Laonic Chalcocondyl is mentioning that the shields of the Valachians were similar to the shields of Tartars.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Viennese_Illuminated_Chronicle_Posada.jpg
Also, regarding the armors used in Wallachia. I think we can say it was a mix, but Wallachia and Moldavia were excellent customers for the ringmails sold by Venice (Italy). Mircea the Old it is known that he inherited an army of 10000 knights in ringmails made in Venice. Those knights were also mentioned during a jousting in Buda 1412. Two things to be highlighted here:
1) The size of the professional army is huge compared with the size of the country.
2) We are talking about knights here, which means a specific and very expensive warrior of the Middle Age. Something it is not right here with image of the peasants army!
As you probably have seen already, in Romania the best place to see something like armors is only on the gravestones or churches frescoes.
For Mircea the Old era (XIV century) weaponry, we must check the church made in his day, the church of the Cozia Monastery, where we can see the ringmails and a lot of spades.
http://www.crestinortodox.ro/admin/_files/newsannounce/bolnita-cozia-%2827%29.jpg
http://www.crestinortodox.ro/admin/_files/newsannounce/bolnita-cozia-%2825%29.jpg
http://www.crestinortodox.ro/admin/_files/newsannounce/bolnita-cozia-%2828%29.jpg
http://www.crestinortodox.ro/admin/_files/newsannounce/bolnita-cozia-(38).jpg

Regarding the passivity and the peace loving Wallachians/Moldavians that would be correct if we refer to it starting only with 1711 in Moldavia and 1716 in Wallachia when are imposed leaders of foreign nationality (Greeks) named Fanariot. Their first action was to make a law forbidding the weapons for all people. Till than the situation was totally different because both voievodes in Moldavia and Wallachia were known for asking that all people (at least the free ones, so forget about Gypsy warriors because they were slaves) to have weapons.
Stephen the Great provided a list of equipment what the people should have when are called under arms (Polish chronicler: saber, bow and arrows) and Vlad the Impaler (Dracula) had impaled (what would you expect?:)) one of his soldiers because of the poor status of his shield and sword.
A good idea of the sword type used by Wallachians it is given by the old names for some administrative functions and by ... Polish chroniclers.
Mare Spatar (Grand Spade Bearer) : majority of Romanians do not know today but "spata" is the archaic form of "spada" = spade (in german would be spatha). So the nobility was using spades (remember the frescoes from Cozia).
Unfortunately not too many people can speak Romanian because this study could be interesting regarding the evolution of the weapons name during the centuries.
Later, http://www.scribd.com/doc/29788274/Probleme-privind-terminologia-armelor-medievale-in-istoriografia-romaneasca-RM-1-1981-de-Speranta-Diaconescu-Elena-Roman LINK (http://www.scribd.com/doc/29788274/Probleme-privind-terminologia-armelor-medievale-in-istoriografia-romaneasca-RM-1-1981-de-Speranta-Diaconescu-Elena-Roman)
And finally, in the following link you may see some of the Moldavian weapons used during the Stephen the Great. Also a sabre from the XVth century in Fig3 unearthed near Suceava.
LINK (http://www.revistamuzeelor.ro/arhpdf/2004_03_08.pdf)

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent post Lucian!!! and welcome to the forum!!! :)
Its great to have another here from Romania, as this history is both complex and incredibly fascinating, and your insight is most valuable. Beautiful illustrations also, thank you for posting them.

All the very best,
Jim

[Samik]

Great post Lucian and thank you very much for the splendid info!

Those beautiful frescoes are very similar (I dare to say almost identical) to those found in Kosovo and other places of former Yugoslavia. It appears Serbs similarly (as well as other adjacent ethnicities) to Wallachians used a mix of western and eastern military equipment. For example you'll find a military saint depicted with classic heater shield , lance and a sword on one hand but also a composite bow with a Kipcak/Cuman style quiver as well (in which the arrows are pointed arrowheads up):

http://stage.srpskoblago.org/Archives/Decani/exhibits/Frescoes/Nave/WestBay/NorthEastArch/large/CX4K2724.jpg

Monastery Decani, Kosovo 1330-1350

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2238/svklimentchurch1295mace.jpg

Church of Saint Kliment , Macedonia cca. 1295

Sabres of both the classic steppe style (riveted hilts and small pommel caps) as well as "paramerions" (essentially weapons with sword hilts and curved blades) are present as well (furthermore Maces are common secondary weapon depicted, instead of the more western European war-hammers).
There are two great websites that host a big number of photographs of the aforementioned "Yugoslav" frescoes
http://www.srpskoblago.org/Archives/ and
http://sankire.narod.ru/Balkani.html

I have looked through most of the wall-paintings on the Srpsko Blago website so if anyone's interested I can point-out the relevant ones (with respect to arms and armour).

Lucian in case you have some more info on the arms and armour from Wallachia/Moldavia etc. feel free to post it , id be very interested myself. It seems there were many similarities between the various south-eastern principalities and kingdoms.

Kind Regards,
Samuel

[TVV]

It is debatable whether the warriors on the frescoes are Serb or Greek or Bulgarian. In fact, at 1295, Macedonia was not part of the Serbian Kingdom.

Given the common state entity and close ties between Walalchians, Bulgarians and Cumans in the 12-13th centuries, it is not surprising that the arms and armor were shared as well.

When looking at frescoes, we also have to remember that the equipment depicted is also based on church cannons and on the artist's own images of how a warrior should look like. Some of the equipment may have been copied down from earlier frescoes, so pictorial evidence alone cannot be completely relied upon, and has to be examiend combined with archaeological finds, written sources, etc.

Regards,
Teodor

[Samik]

It is debatable whether the warriors on the frescoes are Serb or Greek or Bulgarian. In fact, at 1295, Macedonia was not part of the Serbian Kingdom.

Given the common state entity and close ties between Walalchians, Bulgarians and Cumans in the 12-13th centuries, it is not surprising that the arms and armor were shared as well.

When looking at frescoes, we also have to remember that the equipment depicted is also based on church cannons and on the artist's own images of how a warrior should look like. Some of the equipment may have been copied down from earlier frescoes, so pictorial evidence alone cannot be completely relied upon, and has to be examiend combined with archaeological finds, written sources, etc.

Regards,
Teodor

Splendid observation Teodor ,
the depiction of armour in particular seem to have had a great deal of anachronism (e.g. the continuous portrayal of scale/ lamellar armour).As to the ethnicity of the warriors saints I personally think its negligible as for example the Bulgarian 14th century version of manasses chronicle has illustrations with similar figures. Furthermore you'll find very similar/identical portrayal of warrior saints in Kosovar/Serbian frescoes. Coming back to the accuracy of the depiction of arms and armour, some pieces however do have novelties in them, especially in terms of weapons. You can see yelman-less sabres and "paramerions" as well as the cuman-style quivers in the first half of the 14th century , whereas the early 15th century fresco of a trio of warrior-saints (cca. 1408-1420) presents an interesting "development" ( manasija monastery)

http://www.babamim.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Holy_Warriors.171210019_std.JPG


Note the bow-case of the central figure , he has two arrows in it with its fletching pointed upwards , which is more characteristic of Anatolian Turks (there is an article on a similar matter by Russ Mitchell in volume 4 of journal of medieval military history). The rightmost figure of St Nikita sports a sabre with a quite visible yelmen, which is again more typical of later weapons.

You can compare those with earlier depictions (such as the one in my earlier post) and with the depiction of St. Nicetas from Gracanica (1321-22)

http://www.srpskoblago.org/Archives/Gracanica/exhibits/digital/s1-w1e5/large/s1-w1e5-87.jpg
Note the lack of yelmen as well as the "habaki" part between the hilt and the blade.. again a feature more characteristic of earlier sabres. Swords are sometimes presented in anachronistic way (some appearing even after two centuries e.g. you'll find an identical depiction of a sword from a 12th century fresco in a 14th century one etc.) but some are "modern" in their appearance ,e.g. pieces that have semi-curved cross-guard and even hand and a half grips. Those examples of sabres/quivers as well as swords are in my opinion a sign that not all of those fresco depictions are necessarily "outdated" or entirely fantastical. Some are filled with immense attention to detail that can in fact rival the art from Western Europe.

Regards,
Samuel

[Lucian]

Actually a lot of very old churches, but especially the Cozia's church frescoes, are in the Serbian style. Mircea the Old had many relations and alliances with the Serbians. The style we can name it Serbian but I think it would be more correct to name it Byzantine.
Talking about Kossovo, Mircea the Old provided some troops (around 3000 soldiers it is mentioned in several recent articles an even in some history books but I found nothing from that era and I have no idea if were infantry, archers or light cavalry) for the Battle from Kossovo Polje in 1389. I suppose were light cavalry because were supposed to move really fast for a long trip.
In that battle were so many nations that I am almost not surprised about the outcome whom everybody said that is their victory. I am even amazed that they made a cohesion between so many groups.
Coming back to the Wallachian and especially the Moldavian swords, I found an interesting work related to the representation of Saint George on stove tiles from the fourteenth century and also an interesting conclusion:
"One can also note the character of weapons depicted. Sabers appear on
the tiles with St. George mostly in Wallachia (9), while there are only 2 from
Moldavia and 1 in Transylvania. Unlike the sword, the sabre was hardly known
in the medieval west. It was a more oriental type of weapon, re-introduced in
South-Eastern Europe during the fifteenth century due to the conflicts with the Turks. This indicates that in Wallachia such oriental weapons were much more familiar in those times than in Moldavia or Transylvania." The study is at this LINK (http://www.patzinakia.com/STUDIAPATZINAKA/Number03/01-Gruia-SaintGeorge.pdf) .

[TVV]

Samuel,

Good points, supported with perfect illustrations. The blade on St. Nikita's sabre is actually very similar to some swords captured at the second siege of Vienna, more than 2 centuries later - certainly an example of a type that was just starting to appear in Europe. The grip with the forefinger over the crossguard is also remarkable and further shows that the painter must have had a good amount of exposure to warriors of the time, maybe even having some military experience himself.

The second fresco shows the habaki-like plate at the base of the blade, while the garment is conviniently left open to reveal what looks like mail sewn inside. This is where the problems with frescoes start - reenactors tend to see things on some frescoes, which are more the product of conjecture. For example, if that really mail sewn inside, and if so, how about the trousers (same pattern on the outside) with those strange plates on the knees? And then the wild speculation starts.

Overall though you are correct - frescoes provide valuable insight into the arms and armor in the Balkans in the Middle Ages, but they have to be examined with caution to discern what the artist copied from his surroundings, what he copied from older images and what was completely his imagination. And we should be careful to restrain our own imagination somewhat as well.

Thanks for the nice images,
Teodor

[Samik]

Since I cannot edit my previous post and seeing that the second picture somewhat disappeared I'm re-uploading the depiction of St. Nicetas from the Gracanica fresco (1321-22)

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1213/stnicetaswithasabreorap.jpg

Thank you both Teodor and Lucian for your knowledgeable (and much needed) insight !

Regards,
Samuel

[shayde78]

We must be just a week from Halloween, since I found myself reading an article on this topic. Even sportier is that, as I finished the article, I noticed the author's name looked familiar. I'm quite sure she is a fellow forumites.
Anyway, I wanted to link to the article in this thread for reference.

Also, why not resurrect a zombie thread during this witching season?

https://heritagearmssa.com/2017/11/10/kilij-the-sword-of-vlad-the-impaler/

[kronckew]

Having read the linked article, in conjunction with this thread, I find a number of her conclusions a bit over-simplified. An example, The conclusion the Kilij was the ancestor of the sabre instead of the other way around. The statement that the short kilij was used by Cavalry instead of a longer shamshir/sabre, not Infantry seems a bit odd to me as well. The UK general's mameluke-like sword has a noticeable and long 'yelman' but does not require a scabbard with an open spine as the blade is not parabolic and is not highly curved. It was adopted after the french invasion of Egypt by Napoleon when the french generals liked them, and the English liked the French version. (UK one below - earlier versions had a brass scabbard, and came with an orderly to keep it polished) It's fairly stabby too. generals of the period would of course never actually need to use a sword in actual combat unless it got really desperate, which would not be often, if they were a good general.

P.s - I thought Shamshire was a county in the UK, not all that far to the southeast from me in Gloucestershire,the other side of Wiltshire, and just south of Berkshire :D.

[kronckew]

More than you wanted to know about Vlad III:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY82EpsvbQ8

[Jim McDougall]

Most interesting to see this old thread again Wayne! Its been over a decade, and indeed how appropriate to 'revive' the thoughts of good old Dracula on Halloween! :)
Actually the article from Heritage arms was I believe by Stuart Bates, Cathey Brimage is the editor of the publication.

While a bit tenuous, the topic associating the notorious Vlad with the mameluke saber is of course viable in certain remotely connected facts in some degree.
However in most cases such likelihood is about as plausible as the much debated connection between Vlad III (1431-1477) and Bram Stoker's famed vampire. Naturally there are certain possibly connected elements, again in degree.

The evolution of sword forms is mostly speculative chronologically, and that of the 'saber' is pretty well veiled. It seems generally held that curved blades evolved somewhere in Central Asia, probably Turkmenistan to give some sort of geographic reference, keeping in mind that the nomadic tribal people of the Steppes were the likely users of them, and around 9th century.

It is unclear exactly when this design arose with the Turkic tribes that formed the Ottoman empire, but these were not of course in the manner exactly of the later shamshir types, nor the stout shorter blades with yelman known as 'pala'. It seems that some sort of curved saber (as with falchions in Europe) was in use, but these may have been as with many falchions, straight backed with radiused edge to the point.

By the time of Vlad, while there were certainly some type of curved blade swords contemporary, there is no evidence I have ever seen of his using one. I have seen apocryphal sources noting him having a 'Toledo' blade , which in this time would have been of course, a 'knightly' broadsword. We know that straight broadswords were in use in Eastern Europe in these times, but there was a slightly curved version with a kind of 'S' shaped crossguard in use as well.

The 'Ottoman' style shamshirs and the similarly hilted 'pala' did not evolve until considerably later, though we know such sabers were in use by 17th century, and the East Europeans, adopted Ottoman styled swords.

[Teisani]

Time for a bit of thread necromancy... Surviving written accounts of individual martial deeds in Wallachian history are rare. These are also, fairly unknown, especially to English speaking audiences. Since most of it is written in Romanian, I hope to add a bit of info here, for non-Romanian speakers.

In addition to written accounts, surviving weapons and iconography are also rare as hen’s teeth.

A few notes: by Wallachia, it is implied the medieval state of Wallachia, in historical documents known as “Țara Rumânească” “Ungrovlahia” or “Wallachia Transalpina”. Moldova, although also referred to as “Wallachia” or “Moldo-Vlahia” in certain Polish documents, will be referred to strictly as “Moldova”.

Dregator - Historical Romanian ranks and titles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Romanian_ranks_and_titles
Jupan - Župan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDupan

Stroe Buzescu’s duel with the Tatar (1602)

The following is probably the best-known duel (there aren't many known :( ). In October 1601, after the assassination of Wallachian voievod, Michael the Brave (August 1601), the next to be elected voivode was Radu Șerban. However, his reign was initially, not to be a peaceful one, having to fight-off various rivals. One of these was Simion Movilă, brother to the Moldovan voivode, Ieremia Movilă. At first, Simion Movilă, had to retreat to Moldova, not having the troops to maintain the throne. However, he would return during September 1602, with 40,000 Tatars (commanded by Ğazı II Giray - Khan of the Crimean Khanate.), the Moldovans sent by his brother, Ieremia Movilă, and about 300 Cossacks. Radu Şerban's army was much smaller, totalling around 8,000-10,000 infantrymen and 6,000 horsemen, to which were later added 1,000 horsemen sent from Transylvania by the Habsburg general Giorgio Basta. Considering the numerical superiority of the invaders, Radu Şerban adopted a defensive tactic. The decisive battle took place at Teişani, in the valley of the Teleajen river, on September 23 and 24, 1602. All the Tatar attacks against the Wallachian fortified camp with trenches and palisades failed; in the end, after having suffered great losses, the Tatars had to retreat to Silistra. During the battle of Teişani, the son-in-law or grandson (it’s not known for certain, only named Mârza) of the Crimean Khan had a duel with the Wallachian boyar Stroe Buzescu (also held the title of Mare Stolnic). Whether Stroe or the Tatar was the one who made the challenge, I’m not sure. There are quite a few internet articles written in Romanian, that deal with this event. The basic version of events is this...Stroe Buzescu has a duel with the Tatar, and wins by sword thrust (more on that later). Stroe is generally considered to be an old man during this duel, whereas the Tatar is a young, fit and of great stature. A lot of David vs. Goliath vibes going on here. The thing is that Stroe’s birth date isn’t known, so we don’t know his age for sure. He dies from a sword wound on his face sustained in battle with the Tatar. Commonly, it is said be an infection or the enemy’s sword was poisoned (considering he died 5 weeks later, I’d go with infection).

Now for the evidence. As I said, quite a few internet articles are written in Romanian on this duel, however very few cite historical sources. And in my opinion, if something isn’t quoted from a historical source, IT NEVER HAPPENED!. In my opinion, the best free source is “Monumentul funerar în Țara Românească – discurs narativ și efigie” by Ioan Albu. The following Romanian texts are exterpts from said work, the English translations are however, my own attempts:

Stroe’s wife, Sima Buzescu, commissioned a funeral stone with the following inscription:

„†bBъ èìå ѡ(ть)цa и с(ъи)нa и с҃тaго дѹхa aìèí †acesta petră pre ghero(pa) jupănului lu Stroe Buzesculǔ ceu fost stolnicǔ la Mihai Vo(evod)dǔ și au fo(st) la toate războaele preaună cu Domnu său ca o slugă creadenciosă Domǔnu(lui) să(u) și la războiu din întâi dob(ă)ndi ranăt la mâna stăngă de turci și la războiulǔ la Giurgiu câ(nd) să loviră cu hanu să răni la ochiul stăngǔ de săgetă și au slujitǔ lu Mihai Vo(evo)dǔ pănă peri în Țara Ungrească. Deci să sculară boerii țărei cu Buzeștii rădicară prea Radulǔ Vo(evo)d era Simeon Vo(evo)dǔ sea sculă cu tătari, moldoveni și mulți fără să clintească prea Radulǔ Vo(evo)d și prea Buzești din țara lor la țara nemțeascu cu oști(le) lor dice mersă jupănul Stroe la (îm)păratulǔ nemțesc de ceru aju(to)ri de eșiră la Țara Rumănescă cu Radulǔ Vo(evo)d și nu-i așteaptă Simion Vo(evo)dǔ ci se dusă de aducesi și moldoveni și hanulǔ cu ҂Ð • ҂K (160000) de tătari și eșiră de să loviră în gura Telejinului la Teiușani în luna lu Sătevrie Ä ² • (14) zile anii ҂Ç • Ð • ² • (7111 = 1602) luni demin(ea)ț(ă) pă(nă) sara și făcură năvală Marți de trei ori în tote10 părțile dar jupănul Stroe atăta nevoe pre creștini văzu el stătu împotriva tătarilorǔ de să lovi cu comnatulǔ hanului și-lǔ junghie pre tătari și dintracelǔ război să răni la obrazi i preste å (5) septămăni să (în)tă(m)plă moarte în luna lu otovrie B (2) zile Dumnezeu să erte”

„vă leat ҂Ç • Ð • ² •. Și nu fu pre voe căinilor de tătari”
„Scrisei eu jupuneasca Sima a stol(ni)cului Stroe. Deaca voi muri să mă grupați lângă dumniia lui aicea.”

(Slavonic formulation)
In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, Amin
(Romanian text)
This stone on the grave of župan Stroe Buzesculu, who was Stolnic to Voivode Mihai, and was in all wars besides his Lordship (Domn), as a loyal servant to his Lord (Domnului), and in the first war was wounded on his left hand by the Turks, and in the war at Giurgiu, when colliding with the Khan, he was wounded with an arrow to the left eye, and he served Voivode Mihai, till his death in Țara Ungureasca (Transilvanya). Here the land's boyars rose, with the Buzescu's they rose Voivode Radu, and Voivode Simeon rose with the Tatars, and Moldovans and many came and chased away Radu Voda and the Buzescu's from their land. And the Buzescu's with their troops went to the German Emperor (Rudolf II) to ask for help, and they went out to Țara Rumănescă (Wallachia) with Radu voda, and Simeon Voda did not wait for them, he went and brought moldovans and khan's tatars, and the went out and collided at the mouth of the Telejin river, near Teiusani, in the month of September, 14 days, year 7111(1602), Monday morning till evening, and they stormed 3 times on Tuesday from all sides. But župan Stroe seeing much need of the Christians, stood against the Tatars, and struck blows with the khan's brother-in-law (comnatulu), and stabbed (junghie) the Tatar, and in that war (război) he was wounded on the cheek, and over 5 weeks occurred his death in the month of October, 2 days. May God forgive.

"Year ҂Ç • Ð • ² •. And he was not to the will of the Tatar dogs"
"Written by I, župan wife Sima, of stolnic Stroe. If I am to die, burry me next his Lordship here."



In addition to the grave stone, we also have Stroe Buzescu's courage mentioned in a 29 June 1604 chrysobull (hrisov) by Voivode Radu Serban (original in slavonic):

„...ne-am așezat cu toate oștile noastre la un loc numit Ogretin (gol in original) ... într-o zi de luni, 13 zile ale lunii septembrie. Astfel au venit multă mulțime de oști de-ale lor asupra noastră a tuturora și au năvălit peste noi și au aruncat ei atât de multe din săgețile lor asupra noastră, încât nu se putea vedea fața soarelui de săgețile lor și de atâta bătălie răsunau chedrii și munții de bătălia lor și nu se putea înțelege unul cu altul. Iar întru acestea, cinstiții dregători ai domniei mele, mai sus numiți, ei s-au străduit cu slujbă dreaptă și credincioasă și cu vărsare de sânge dinaintea feții domniei mele și a tuturor dregătorilor și boierilor domniei mele și întru nimic nu și-au pierdut credința, nici dușmanilor noștri n-au întors spatele, fără încetare și-au vărsat sângele lor pentru domnia mea și pentru creștinii țării domniei mele, încât putem spune cu adevărat pentru dregătorul domniei mele, răposatul jupan Stroe fost mare stolnic, dacă a văzut el atâta greutate și nevoie asupra capului domniei mele, luptat cu atât mai mult cu dușmanii domniei mele pentru domnia mea și pentru legea creștinească și pentru patria noastră, ca să ne scoată din mâna dușmanilor noștri. Și a fost rănit jupan Stroe fost mare stolnic în război și apoi a murit în 2 zile ale lunii Octombrie, Dumnezeu să-i ierte sufletul lui, pentru că s-a străduit pentru domnia mea și pentru legea creștinească.”

"...we settled with all our troops at a place called Ogretin (blanc in original) on a Monday, 13th day of September. Thus, there came many of their troops upon us all, and stormed us, and let loose so many arrows upon us, to black-out the Sun, and from such fighting the woods and mountains wrang such that one could not hear another. As such, my lordship's onorable dregators, mentioned previously, endeavored with righteous and faithfull service, and shed blood before my lordship and all my lordship's dregators and boyars, and never loosing their faith, never turned their back to the enemy, ceaselessly sheding their blood for my lordship and for the Christians of my lordships's land, so that we can truly say that for my lordship's dregator, the late župan Stroe, former mare stolnic, who at seeing such great hardship upon my lordship, fought that much more with my lordship's enemies, for my lordship and for the Christian law and for our land, to free us from our enemies' grasp. And župan Stroe, former mare stolnic, was wounded in war and died 2 days into the month of October. May God forgive his soul, for he endeavored for my lordship and for the Christian law."

Stroe was buried at Stănești monastery, in Vâlcea county, and fortunately the tombstone also includes a depiction of the duel. The following is a copy of the original that resides at the National Military Museum Bucharest. Although it's not a detailed depiction, there are still some interesting things to be seen:
- Stroe (on the right) is using what seems to be a pallash (paloș in RO, pallos in HU, pałasz in PL), deduced by the straight blade, but also the straight scabbard under his leg. The fact that he used it to thrust, and that the scabbard is under his leg, makes me wonder if it was actually a koncerz/hegyestőr
- The Tatar is seen dropping his sabre, of fairly typical shape (notice the large yelman). Also besides him, are a recurve bow in holster and a quiver with arrows.

Other sources:
https://historia.ro/sectiune/actualitate/manastirea-stanesti-povestea-tragica-a-lui-stroe-577794.html
https://wiki.drajna.ro/doku.php?id=batalia_de_la_ogretin_si_stanesti

[Teisani]

Here are a few pictures I took at the Muzeul Naţional de Artă al României:

Sf. Gheorghe & Sf. Dumitru (nice details on the composite bow). Painting atributed to master painter Dobromir, 1526, from the Curtea de Argeș monastery's church.

[Teisani]

More pictures from the same...interesting how nicely detailed the composite bows are depicted. Also interesting is how the swords have 3 fullers at the base, only one extending to the tip. And finally, the scabard chapes all have the same design.

[Teisani]

One more note regarding the Tatar's depiction on Stroe's tombstone, his sabre seems to be similar in shape this sabre in the Livrustkammaren in Stockholm, Sweden. This type of sabre can also be seen mural painting at the Moldovița monastery - „Buna Vestire” church built in 1532, being word by the Ottoman riders in a scene depicting the seige of Constantinopole.

[Teisani]

A few depictions from/about Wallachians/Moldovans in order:

1- Terracotta stove tile depicting a rider akin to polish winged hussar from Târgoviște, Wallachia, 1640.

2- Eques walachus. Ein reuter aufs der walachi (Diversarum gentium armatura equestris, Rijksmuseum Amsterdam - Abraham de Bruyn 1576)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Walachijnse_ruiter%2C_RP-P-OB-26.984.jpg)

3- Moldovan (called Wallachian in the depiction) envoy sent by voievode Alexandru Lăpușneanu being greeted by Poles of Sigismund II Augustus in July 1567 in Gorodno (today Belarus) from Vera designatio Urbis in Littavia Grodnae : Ware abconterfectung der Stadt Grodnae in der Littaw - published at Nürnberg in 1568. Enscriptions are "Poloni excipiunt Vualachos" "Die Polen entpfangen die Valachiss Bottschafft". Poles on the right, Moldovans on the left. (https://polona.pl/item/vera-designatio-urbis-in-littavia-grodnae-ware-abconterfectung-der-stadt-grodnae-in-der,NTc3MDUxMQ/0/#item)

4- Militis walachia ex vestitus (Omnium pene Europae, Asiae, Aphricae, Americae gentium habitus - Abraham de Bruyn 1581)(https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Omnium_pene_Europae,_Asiae,_Aphricae,_Ame ricae_gentium_habitus#/media/File:Habits_de_diverses_nations_(polish_and_hungar y_people).jpg)

Notice how the rider from [2] and one of the riders from [3] have the same pouncing lion heraldry on the shield. Also, some of the riders from [3] have the same style hats as in [2].

[Teisani]

A few more:

5 - same as [3], taken from "Călători străini despre Ţările Române Vol. II". Info from "Buletinul Comisiunii Monumentelor Istorice - 1924 Anul XVII P.P. Panaitescu".

6 - Moldovan ruler, Ieremia Movilă (died July 1606) tomb veil from Sucevița Monastery's Church, Suceava county Romania.

7 - Portrait of Ieremia Movilă.

8 - Son of Moldovan ruler Vasile Lupu, Ioan Lupu - died 1639 (embroidery portrait)
(https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fi%C8%99ier:Portretul_lui_Ioan,_fiul_voievodului_V asile_Lupu_%C8%99i_al_doamnei_Tudosca_(Art%C4%83_d ecorativ%C4%83)_2262_17.04.2019_Tezaur_5C7D21948E6 34071AF945A23FBEC2C19.jpg)

9 - Tombstone of Wallachian ruler, Radu de la Afumati (died 1529)
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:042_-_Radu_de_la_Afumati.jpg

10 - Tombstone of Wallachian boyar, Albul Golescu (died 1574). Source:Monumentul funerar în Țara Românească –
discurs narativ și efigie -Ioan Albu (https://revistatransilvania.ro/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/05.Ioan-Albu.pdf)

[Teisani]

One more:

11 - Mihai Viteazul (died 1601) from Georgios Palamedes' rhyming chronicle of the life of Michael the Brave, written in 1607. Very poor quality depiction, but what is discernable is a fairly typical looking sabre.

[Teisani]

A few pictures from the Museum of Oltenia region in Craiova city, Dolj county (Muzeul Olteniei Craiova - history and archeology section). The two last spathas (4th century) were found near Desa village Dolj county.

[Teisani]

A few more:

[Teisani]

A few photos from the "Muzeul Militar Naţional - Regele Ferdinand I" Bucharest.

[Teisani]

A few more from the same:

[Teisani]

Minor observation, while visiting the Golești museum (Muzeul Golești) near Pitești, I noticed this decoration on a stove tile, which is very similar to Albu Golescu's tombstone (died 1574), posted earlier. I doubt that it is from the same period, but still interesting.

[Teisani]

A few more photos from "Muzeul Naţional de Artă al României". Icons depicting saints with 18th century pallash types, with knuckle guards.
1 - St. Prokopios (18th century) from Bistrita monastery, Valcea county. Nice stitching detail on the scabbard.
2 - St. Michael from Partoş monastery, Banat region (1740). Former Austrian Empire, today Romania.
3 - St. Michael, (18th century), Banat region. Former Austrian Empire, today Romania.
4 - Unknown (St. George?). Probably Transylvanian. Nice longsword with type XV blade and rain-guard?

[Teisani]

One more.

[Teisani]

A very poor-quality photo of Vasile Lupu's tomb shroud. Ruler of Moldova 1634-53.

[kronckew]

My Xmas present: A Turkish sword of the early tribal 'Ertugrul' style: The long 'yelman' is sharp.

[Teisani]

My Xmas present: A Turkish sword of the early tribal 'Ertugrul' style: The long 'yelman' is sharp.

Nice, congratulations! Is it based on any archeological find?

[kronckew]

Nice, congratulations! Is it based on any archeological find?


I think it was based on one in the Topkapi Museum that had straight quillons, and another that had down curved ones. Mine is a simpler version.

[Teisani]

Here's something that bugs me...this horseman looks very similar to the "Eques Walachus" by Abraham de Bruyn 1576 (posted above). I'm really wondering how much de Bruyn's was actually inspired by this.

Universitätsbibliothek Heidelberg, Cod. Pal. germ. 128 Buch von den probierten Künsten — Südwestdeutschland, 1535 Franz Helm, page 72
Heidelberg University Library, Cod. Pal. German 128 Book of the tried arts - Southwest Germany, 1535 Franz Helm

Source: https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg128/0183/image,info,thumbs

[Reventlov]

...this horseman looks very similar to the "Eques Walachus" by Abraham de Bruyn 1576 (posted above). I'm really wondering how much de Bruyn's was actually inspired by this.



I think this particular illustration must have been modeled on a print of Turkish riders by Erhard Schön, made around 1530, and I think I recognize some of the other illustrations as well. Prints like these circulated widely and were often copied or imitated.

I don't recognize the "eques Walachus", but wouldn't be too surprised if it was based on a earlier piece also.

Best,

Mark

[Teisani]

I don't recognize the "eques Walachus", but wouldn't be too surprised if it was based on a earlier piece also.


Thank you very much Reventlov, for this interesting bit of info!

So, let's look at the following:

1) Zwei Türken mit vier Gefangenen - Erhard Schön 1529 http://www.zeno.org/Kunstwerke/B/Schoen,+Erhard%3A+Zwei+T%C3%BCrken+mit+vier+Gefang enen+%5B1%5D
2) Buch von den probierten Künsten - Franz Helm 1535
3) Gorodno (today Belarus) from Vera designatio Urbis in Littavia Grodnae : Ware abconterfectung der Stadt Grodnae in der Littaw 1568.
4) Eques walachus. Ein reuter aufs der walachi - Diversarum gentium armatura equestris Abraham de Bruyn 1576
5) Militis walachia ex vestitus - Omnium pene Europae, Asiae, Aphricae, Americae gentium habitus - Abraham de Bruyn 1581

In addition to these, I would like to add these Mamluks:

6) MAMALVCKE - Three Mamelukes with lances on horseback - Daniel Hopfer 1526-1536 https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/P_1845-0809-1342
7) Mammalutus, qui abiurata Christ religione, Turc fectam feguitur - Omnium Poene Gentium Imagines Cologne, Abraham de Bruyn 1577
https://www.meisterdrucke.com/kunstdrucke/Abraham-de-Bruyn/200349/Sechzehnten-Jahrhundert-Kost%C3%BCme-aus-Omnium-Poene-Gentium-Imagines,-erschienen-in-K%C3%B6ln,-1577-(handfarbige-Gravur).html

Remarks:
- As we can see 1), 2), & 6) are pretty much the same depiction. Difficult to know who was first, 1) or 6). My bet is on 6), but this is just a baseless guess. Also, look at the mistake in 2), the sabre has only the front quillon, probably due to the poor visibility of the rear quillon in 1).
- All, except 5), have large "hussar" shields. Not really remarkable, just a note.
- 5) and 7) are very, very similar, even though one depicts a Wallachian, the other a Mamluk. Both are made by de Bruyn.
- 3) & 4) have the same lion on two legs depicted on the shield. You would think that de Bruyn's is the inspiration, but the other one is older...so that's something to ponder.
- those hats...what's with those hats? Tall, simple design (no borders, decorations etc.), fur hats. All, except 3), have twin long feathers. To be continued...

[Teisani]

...Continued

Regarding those hats. It could be that those hats are associated with Mamluks, Wallachians/Romanians and Ottomans (from Rumelia) because:

- Wallachian/Romanian shepherds wore (and still do https://revistacititordeproza.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/cioban-cu-caciula1.jpg) similar hats. They would migrate with their flocs depending on the season, and Germans would learn to associate Wallachians with this style hat. This Moravian Vlach from Brumov, 1787 even has feathers (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A4hrische_Walachei#/media/Datei:Valach_1787.jpg). Here's a sea of these https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/long-march-of-romanian-pows-from-the-battle-of-stalingrad-news-photo/524663486 & https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/news-photo/525511648. So that much regarding Wallachians.
- Mamluks...well even 7) says: Mammalutus, qui abiurata Christ religione, Turc fectam feguitur = Mamluk, who renounced the religion of Christ, was made a Turk. It seems they associated Mamluks with former Christians (mostly from South-East Europe/Rumelians). Considering that Wallachia Transalpina was an Ottoman vassal at that time (even though not under direct control of the Sultan, it was a vassal), they probably lumped Mamluks, Wallachians/Romanians and Ottomans (from Rumelia most likely) under the same estetic umbrella.
- One more thing... in 1) you can see the two styles of ottomans, one wearing a turban?, the other a simple tall hat. This could mean "a born muslim" Ottoman and a "converted person" or "Ottoman vassal". Not sure, but something to think about.

[Reventlov]

- As we can see 1), 2), & 6) are pretty much the same depiction. Difficult to know who was first, 1) or 6). My bet is on 6), but this is just a baseless guess. Also, look at the mistake in 2), the sabre has only the front quillon, probably due to the poor visibility of the rear quillon in 1).


Daniel Hopfer made a number of engravings (particularly of landsknechts) that were based on prints of Schön and others, sometimes combining figures from different artists into a new composition. So in general, he's unlikely the original artist with this subject matter.

I checked though, and it seems that actually the true original is a print of Mamelukes by Jan Swart van Groningen, made in 1526.

http://warfare.ga/Ottoman/byEuropeans/Swart-Solimanvs.htm

Swart's series of prints does differentiate the nationalities: Turks in turbans are labelled Haiden - "pagans".

[Teisani]

I checked though, and it seems that actually the true original is a print of Mamelukes by Jan Swart van Groningen, made in 1526..

Nice find, thank you! One thing that intrigues me is coat of arms on the shields of the Turks and Mamluks of Jan Swart van Groningen and Daniel Hopfer. Any idea what it is? I searched briefly only, but it's upper left corners / lower right is reminiscent of the Serbian cross, itself adapted from the Byzantine tetragrammatic cross (like this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_flags_and_insignia#/media/File:Flag_of_the_Emperor_of_Constantinople.svg) maybe it symbolizes orthodox Christians incorporated into the Ottoman Empire? The other two corners have the crescent moon of Islam, I guess.

[Reventlov]

One thing that intrigues me is coat of arms on the shields of the Turks and Mamluks of Jan Swart van Groningen and Daniel Hopfer. Any idea what it is?

I can only guess the same as you do. Western artistic depictions can't be taken too literally since the Ottomans were unfamiliar and exotic enemies. Probably there was some general understanding that the Mamluks were slave-soldiers, and the Ottomans recruited from Balkan peoples... so we get this depiction of "Mamelukes" who are more likely Serbians or what have you, or the shield is a generic symbol of the Ottoman union of Muslim/Orthodox lands.

[Teisani]

Vlad's Duels

Here's an experience of mine, and a warning to anyone trying to research Vlad III "Țepeș".
It started with my viewing of this video about a year ago (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NA34EZACkWY), where it says that Țepeș fought two duels for the throne of Wallachia. One with Vladislav II, the other with Dan III. I decided to look it up, and started with the Wikipedia article on Vladislav III in Romanian. No mention of a duel. There is one in Wiki English, but no source is provided... so not trust worthy. Even less could be found for Dan III.
The only historical source that I could find was from "Letopisețul Cantacuzinesc - Istoria Țării Rumânești de când au descălecat pravoslavnicii creștini" which said: Vădislav-voievod Bătrânul au venit domn când au fost cursul anilor de la Adam 6935. Acesta au făcut bisérica domnească den Târșor. Și au pierit de sabie, în mijlocul Târșorului.

Which means "And he (Vladislav) died by the sabre in the middle of Târșor".

You may be wondering. "Sabre/sabie"? In 1456? Shouldn't it be "sword/spată". But you see, the text was written in the late 1600s, so nothing to write home about. Thus, no word of a duel. Confirmation for this lack of any duels came only recently with this video by Corpus Draculianum group which clearly states that there is no evidence for these duels happening https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i6mtzCJWF5Y
Why do I believe them? Because they are the best source of info on Vlad Țepeș that I have found thus far, and recommend them to anybody interested in this topic.

I can't recommend however the following (anything that uses Florescu and McNally as a source really):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MY82EpsvbQ8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BtCjc5OwBi4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NA34EZACkWY

I can recommend this part 2 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9RoBspQiOiE and the Corpus Draculianum channel (audio is in Romanian, but there are English captions).

[Teisani]

Damn! Found another one of those depictions. This one is from Códice De Trajes, 1547.
http://warfare.ueuo.com/Renaissance/Codice_De_Trajes-59v.htm

And here's what that hat is "Mamluk red zamṭ hat". So his hat was very much associated with the Mamluks.
http://blog.slow-venice.com/fashion-in-15th-century-in-the-paintings-at-the-accademia-gallery/
http://warfare.ga/16/Carpaccio-St_George_Baptizes_the_Selenites-zamt.htm
https://www.rct.uk/collection/990062/three-mamluk-dignitaries
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anonymous_Venetian_orientalist_painting,_The_ Reception_of_the_Ambassadors_in_Damascus%27,_1511, _the_Louvre.jpg
https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vittore_carpaccio,_trionfo_di_san_giorgio_01. jpg

So the similarity between Wallachian and Mamluk depictions seems to be a coincidence only.

[Reventlov]

Damn! Found another one of those depictions. This one is from Códice De Trajes, 1547.

Nice! It is interesting to see how far the image circulated. A consequence of the original being a print that could be mass-produced, not a painting or drawing. In this case the caption Mosquwiter would mean "Muscovites"?! The other groups of horsemen are there too... the "Arabs" have become "Tatars".

http://bdh-rd.bne.es/viewer.vm?id=0000052132&page=1

Searching in connection with this new version I found that according to at least one 16th century Wappenbuch, the coat of arms seen in some of the versions was attributed to Osman I. I am quite sure that this should not be taken literally, but instead symbolizes the transfer of authority from the Byzantines to the Ottomans.

http://www.hubert-herald.nl/ByzantiumArms.htm

[Teisani]

...In this case the caption Mosquwiter would mean "Muscovites"?! The other groups of horsemen are there too... the "Arabs" have become "Tatars".
Nice catch! I missed the Tatar picture. I have on more example that shows how unreliable these old prints can be. More on that later.

Searching in connection with this new version I found that according to at least one 16th century Wappenbuch, the coat of arms seen in some of the versions was attributed to Osman I. I am quite sure that this should not be taken literally, but instead symbolizes the transfer of authority from the Byzantines to the ...

That's a really nice find! And I agree with your conclusion.

[Teisani]

Here's another example how depictions get reused over time.

1 Báthory Zsigmond and George I Rákóczi.

https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fișier:Báthory_Zsigmond_1596.jpg

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Portraits_of_George_I_Rákóczi#/media/File%3AJerzy_II_Rakoczy.jpg

2 Michael the Brave and Gheorghe Ștefan

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Michael_the_Brave_in_engravings#/media/File%3A074_-_Mihai_Viteazul.jpg

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Michael_the_Brave_in_engravings#/media/File%3AArolsen_Klebeband_02_311.jpg

========================

Also, another example of that wool hat that Wallachians are depicted with. Portrait of Michael the Brave. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Michael_the_Brave_in_engravings#/media/File%3A073_-_Mihai_Viteazul.jpg

[Teisani]

Here's another example of the same depiction used for two different people, Bathory Istvan and False Dmitry I.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Báthory_István_(1533_-_1586).jpg

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:False_Dmitriy_I_with_moustache.jpg#mw-jump-to-license

[Teisani]

This just gets weirder and weirder.

1 - two Michael the Brave portraits combined to give on Andrei Movilă/Andrzej Mohyła.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Michael_the_Brave_in_engravings#/media/File%3A072_-_Mihai_Viteazul.jpg

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Michael_the_Brave_in_engravings#/media/File%3AMihaiViteazul.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Hetman_Andrij_Mohyla.jpg

2 - how about this portrait of Bethlen Gabor (see attached picture), which is actually another portrait of Michael the Brave. Although this likely is a more modern mistaken identity.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Michael_the_Brave_in_engravings#/media/File%3AMichael_the_Brave_(Mihai_Viteazul).png

[Teisani]

Last examples:

1 - Gabor Bethlen with and without hat.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Portraits_of_Gábor_Bethlen#/media/File%3AArolsen_Klebeband_01_439_2.jpg
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Portraits_of_Gábor_Bethlen#/media/File%3AArolsen_Klebeband_01_437_2.jpg

2 - Bocskai István with and without sabre.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Bocskay-istvan1.jpg
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Portraits_of_Stephen_Bocskay#/media/File%3A4k_ref_portre_bocskai.jpg

After seeing all of this, I now have a healthy dose of scepticism when looking at these old depictions.

[ariel]

Perhaps, the most informative source of old Hungarian swords is the so-called Kepes Kronica, " The illustrates chronic", a book written in ~1370 on the order of a Hungarian King Louis ( Lajos) I. It shows a variety of Hungarian armamentarium at that time: a co-existence of both European and Oriental swords.

The very first illustration shows the king sitting on the throne and surrounded by the local aristocracy. On his right side ( our left) are definitely European knights wearing typical European armour and carrying straight swords. Those are the European warriors serving him and coming from different Christian principalities including France: Louis I belonged to Angevine dynasty.

But on his left ( our right) are several swarthy, bearded and mustachioed individuals wearing long Oriental robes and carrying curved sabers. Those are the Cumans ( Quipchaks) who came to Hungary after 1237, escaping the onslaught of the Batu Khan’s Golden Horde on Eastern and Central Europe.

[ariel]

The army of Batu Khan reached the Adriatic Coast of the Balkans and their swords entered the local armamentariums.
Here are two frescoes from Serbian monasteries built in 1346 and 1347: St. Nikita in Gracanica monastery and St Mikhael in St. Demetrius monastery. Both are armed with typical nomadic sabers.

[Teisani]

Perhaps, the most informative source of old Hungarian swords is the so-called Kepes Kronica...
Sabres
Yes, the Chronicon Pictum or Képes Krónika is an important source for East/Central European history. As you mentioned, in it, are depicted steppe people elements (Cumans) in this part of Europe. Interestingly the pommels have peen-blocks.

Here are the pages with sabres depicted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicon_Pictum#/media/File:Képes_krónika_-_1.oldal_-_Lajos_király_a_trónon_(2).jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K%C3%A9pes_kr%C3%B3nika_-_9.oldal_-_Attila_csat%C3%A1ja_Zeiselmauern%C3%A9l_a_r%C3%B3 maiakkal.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Attila_(K%C3%A9pes_kr%C3%B3nika).jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K%C3%A9pes_kr%C3%B3nika_-_26.oldal_-_Kund,_L%C3%A9l,_%C3%96rs.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bela_menekul.jpg

The sabres depicted match this type in my opinion http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=239841&postcount=10. Except the one shown in the second link, which is a typical steppe sabre.
Although this discussion would be more relevant in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28312

==========================

Vlachs
Chronicon Pictum is also important for those interested for those in the history of Wallachia as the establishment is closelly linked to the battle of Posada in 1330.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chronicon_Pictum_P0143_A_posadai_csata1.JPG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K%C3%A9pes_kr%C3%B3nika_-_144.oldal_-_K%C3%A1roly_kir%C3%A1ly_Bazar%C3%A1d_vajda_k%C3%B 6vet%C3%A9t_fogadja.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Viennese_Illuminated_Chronicle_Posada.jpg

[Teisani]

Moldovan at the wedding procession of Sigismund III Vasa into Cracow in 1605. Depiction on the Stockholm Roll/Rolka sztokholmska/Polska rullen.
https://ro.pinterest.com/pin/543809723761525502/
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Stockholm_Roll#/media/File:Färglagd_teckning,_föreställande_Sigismund_II Is_och_drottning_Konstantias_intåg_i_Krakow_den_4_ december_1605,_den_s.k._polska_(eller_i_Polen_Stoc kholms-)_rullen_-_Livrustkammaren_-_81237.jpg

Personal notes:
1 - the clothes he is wearing are very close to those of Michael the Brave (1558-1601) and Ieremia Movilă (1555-1606). Especially the cap called gugiuman made of sable fur (Martes zibellina), with a white bottom (for the voivode/ruler and his sons) or with a red bottom (for the boyars). The hat pin (called a surguci) also matches Mihai and Ieremia's style. In fact, Movilă was a close ally of Poland-Lithuania at that time, and a rival of Michael the Brave. He is also wearing the same yellow boots that Movilă has, and that were so popular in the region. Vasile Lupu (1595-1661) ruler of Moldova and his son Ioan Lupu also have similar hats.
2 - he seems to have a koncerz/hegyestőr and a sabre, same as others depicted.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lord_Jeremiah_Grave.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mihai_Viteazul#/media/File:MihaiViteazul.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mihai_Viteazul#/media/File:Mihai_Viteazul_wiki_en.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Vasile_Lupu#/media/File:099_-_Vasile_Lupu.jpg
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fi%C8%99ier:Portretul_lui_Ioan,_fiul_voievodului_V asile_Lupu_%C8%99i_al_doamnei_Tudosca_(Art%C4%83_d ecorativ%C4%83)_2262_17.04.2019_Tezaur_5C7D21948E6 34071AF945A23FBEC2C19.jpg

[Teisani]

2 - he seems to have a koncerz/hegyestőr and a sabre, same as others depicted.

Addendum: his (and others') koncerz/hegyestőr looks similar to these from the Magyar National Museum in Budapest:
http://www.museumap.hu/record/-/record/oai-aggregated-bib5837785
http://gepeskonyv.btk.elte.hu/adatok/Okor-kelet/Okori.es.keleti.muveszet/index.asp_id=502.html
https://sites.google.com/site/hagyomanyesmultidezo/nyilvanos/katalogus/xvi-szazad/ferfi-viseletek/hadi-viselet/fegyverek/koezelharci-fegyverek/toroek/hegyestor-magyarorszag

[Evgeny_K]

The sabres depicted match this type in my opinion http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=239841&postcount=10.

Very interesting, thank you!

[Teisani]

Very interesting, thank you!
You're welcome. By the way, do you have any additional info for this sabre? Maybe some additional photos to share? It's a really nice specimen.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=239912&postcount=15

[Evgeny_K]

You're welcome. By the way, do you have any additional info for this sabre? Maybe some additional photos to share? It's a really nice specimen.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=239912&postcount=15

I can make some shots in a couple of days.
And if you're inetested here are some additional pics of the previous sword (after it was cleaned):
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25450

[Teisani]

...here are some additional pics of the previous sword (after it was cleaned)...
Thank you Evgeny, it's an interesting specimen, to say the least. I don't know much about these two-handed sabres, but I do have a couple of observations:

- the square-ish pommel and cross-guard are fairly similar to ones found on swords uncovered in the Carpatian basin and to the East of it (Moldova). As you mentioned this sabre was found near Moldova (see here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=277427&postcount=70).
- The sabres in the Chronicon Pictum are mostly depicted in the hands of magyars (conquest period) and cumans, so mostly E-Europe steppe nomads.
Remember that Moldova (pre-Mongol) invasion was politically part of Cumania. And the medieval state of Moldova started out in 1343 as a defence borderland (Marcă de graniţă/Grenzemark /Határőrgrófság) for the Kingdom of Hungary against the Tatars. The same Kingdom of Hungary depicted in the Chronicon Pictum, probaly done in the ~1370s (see Ariel's explanation here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=278416&postcount=94).
- The blade shape is interesting, the single fuller, the yelman, it could be considered just a variation on 15th century S-guard two-handed, Hungarian sabres. But I would argue that this could be a transitional form from the steppe sabre to the 14th century sabre. The single fuller isn't unheard of by that time, see the example here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Muzeum_Narodowe_Ziemi_Przemyskiej_szabla_w%C4 %99gierska_X_w_2016-12-29_p.jpg)

So one hypothesis is that it could be a 1300s-1400s sabre from Hungary/Transylvania/Moldova asociated with the Cumans in these regions.

[Teisani]

- The blade shape is interesting, the single fuller, the yelman, it could be considered just a variation on 15th century S-guard two-handed, Hungarian sabres. But I would argue that this could be a transitional form from the steppe sabre to the 14th century sabre. The single fuller isn't unheard of by that time, see the example here:

Ah yes, and here's a steppe nomad sabre with a single wide fuller and a yelman. So we can say that these features existed by that time.

[Evgeny_K]

Dear Teisani, thank you for very interesting hypothesis. So you think this sword is earlier than 15th century S-guard Hungarian sabres?

[Teisani]

Dear Teisani, thank you for very interesting hypothesis. So you think this sword is earlier than 15th century S-guard Hungarian sabres?

My guess is that it could be from the mid 1300s to the mid 1400s, an archaic form of the more familiar S-quillon sabres. But this is just a guess based solely on my above stated arguments. Do you have any idea if it was found north or south of Moldova?

================================================== ======

By the way, do you know where this one was found? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=239912&postcount=15

[Teisani]

Oh, and a possible period depiction of a S-quilloned sabre can be found here:
https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:San_Giovanni_da_Capistrano.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Giovanni_di_Bartolomeo_d%E2%80%99Aquila_-_Kapisztr%C3%A1n_Szent_J%C3%A1nos_a_n%C3%A1ndorfeh %C3%A9rv%C3%A1ri_csat%C3%A1ban.jpg
L'Aquila, Museo Nationale, Maestro di San Giovanni da Capistrano (Giovanni di Bartolomeo dell’Aquila), cc.1480-1485.
The four side panels represent scenes of the saint's life [counter-clockwise]: in the upper left panel, Holy Mass celebrated on the battle field in the presence of the Crusaders below it, the Battle of Belgrade, where the Crusaders fought against the Turks in the top right panel, a sermon given by St. John in L'Aquila, during which some possessed people were healed. in the background is the Cathedral of St. Maximus, as it would appear before the catastrophic earthquake of 1703 that destroyed it almost completely. in the lower right panel, the death of the saint. The panel, dated between 1480 and 1485 (and then just thirty years after the death of the saint) was first attributed to Sebastiano di Cola from Casentino; later on, to a "Maestro delle Storie di S. Giovanni da Capestrano", who also authored "St. Francis Receiving the Stigmata", stored in the same room of the museum. According to the latest studies, this Maestro should be identified with Giovanni di Bartolomeo from Aquila, as recorded in Naples by a notary deed of June 1448: this painter shows a Gothic formation in his meticulous attention to detail, and a Renaissance influence in the use of perspective and volumes.
Siege of Belgrade 1456, depiction from 1480-85. The Ottomans are depicted as having S-quilloned sabres, though single-handed and without pommels.

[Reventlov]

Oh, and a possible period depiction of a S-quilloned sabre can be found here:
Very interesting and not one I have seen before. Thanks for sharing so much in this excellent thread!

There are a number of artworks from around 1470-1510, from Italy, Austria, Hungary, and Slovakia, that show very well this distinctive Southeastern-European style of hilt, mostly on straight-bladed swords. The Austrian image database is a good resource for this:

https://www.imareal.sbg.ac.at/en/realonline/

[Teisani]

Very interesting and not one I have seen before. Thanks for sharing so much in this excellent thread
...

Glad you liked it, I found it by chance recently. If you have any other works of art in mind, please feel free to post them. Even though the topic is "Wallachian swords of the 15th century ", I believe it is important to understand what was available in geographically close regions, and even in other time periods to give context, especially considering the scarcity of period sources of on the actual topic. My only request is to post the source site for the picture/info if possible.

[Teisani]

Ok, back to Wallachian stuff. Here are some more pictures of the 2 pages (143 and 146) depicting the Battle of Posada 1330 from the Chronicon Pictum. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Battle1330.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chronicon_Pictum_P0143_A_posadai_csata1.JPG
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chronicon_Pictum_P0146_A_posadai_csata2.JPG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Viennese_Illuminated_Chronicle_Posada.jpg


Chronicon Pictum (Page 144) - King Charles receives the envoy of Voivode Basarab In the initial "N", on the left, the envoy hands over a letter from Voivode Basarab to King Charles Robert. The King is in armor, the envoy has a long hair, is in a long Cuman dress, with a helmet in his left hand.

Basarab sent honorable messengers to the king and said: "You have toiled, my lord the king, with gathering an army: for that I give seven thousand silver marks as compensation for your toil. I also hand over Szörény to you in peace with all the ingredients, which you captured by force; moreover, I will faithfully pay the tribute every year, which I owe to your crown, and I will also send one of my sons to your court, at your expense, with my money and expenses: just return in peace and do not put your men in danger, because if you come further, you will not avoid danger." Upon hearing this, the king with an arrogant mind said these words to the messengers: "Tell Basarab: he is the shepherd of my sheep; I will pull him out of his hiding place by his beard!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicon_Pictum#/media/File:Képes_krónika_-_144.oldal_-_Károly_király_Bazarád_vajda_követét_fogadja.jpg

And one from Johannes de Thurocz's Chronica Hungarorum (1488)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Battle_of_Posada_(Chronica_Hungarorum).jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Posada_Thuroczy.jpg

Notes:
1 - according to wiki, the Chronicon Pictum was written between 15th of May 1358 and 1370-73. So the last pages, those depicting the Battle of Posada, where made during the early 1370s.
2 - most Wallachians are depicted as wearing sheep skin hats and coats, and having long dark hair. Othersare very Cuman-like in appearance, might actually be Cumans (like Basarab's envoy). Even the sheep-skin wearing individuals are using recurve bows.

[Teisani]

...So you think this sword is earlier than 15th century S-guard Hungarian sabres?

I just noticed that almost all the swords and sabres depicted in the Chronicon Pictum have long handles, which makes me wonder just how accurate are these representations. Surely not all swords of that period where two-handed.

[Teisani]

Swords of Stephen III the Great/Ştefan al III-lea cel Mare of Moldova (born 1438-39, ruled 1457–1504).

A nice article by Radu Oltean can be found here: http://art-historia.blogspot.com/2022/07/despre-spada-lui-stefan-de-la-istanbul.html

About the sword of Stephen in Istanbul

Some thoughts about the swords of "Stephen the Great" from Istanbul, after browsing the book by Mr. Andrei Adrian Rusu, "Stephan the Great and the Moldavians of his time". But also some personal opinions, settled over time.
The weapons used by Moldovans in the 15th century were overwhelmingly imported. The vast majority from the Saxon cities, Brașov, Sibiu, Bistrița. For these cities, the export of weapons to Moldova was one of the main sources of income. However, certain more special weapons were brought even further, from Germany or Italy. And not just weapons. The study of archaeological findings suggests that all the knives or razors discovered in archaeological excavations in Moldova are imported. It is estimated that over 50% of weaponry of any kind was imported, especially high-performance weapons involving special technology or steels. Also, much of the bows and arrows were imported from the Saxon cities. The few craftsmen from Moldova that we know about were all foreigners, such as the bow maker from Suceava, a Saxon (his tombstone was preserved).

But not only the weapons but also most of the tools were all brought from Transylvania: awls, saws, axes, beards, then locks, keys, hinges, etc. Moldova had no iron. Who would have made high-performance weapons in Moldova? Crossbows, swords of good steel...Not to mention chain mail. Moldova did not have cities like those in Transylvania or Poland where there were guilds producing metal objects, a metallurgical industry that required high technological knowledge. And guilds to qualify craftsmen to high standards.

Another important source of weapons was wars. Many other weapons were obtained as spoils from battles, kept in the lord's arsenal and later given to the "braves". However, it is very likely that there were numerous repair workshops in Moldova.

Swords were weapons that not everyone had access to. They were expensive weapons and (although apparently simple) difficult to produce. The steel had to be of good quality. The rarity of swords and swords from medieval Moldova is supported by both sources and archaeological discoveries. And all the few discovered are from before the era of Ștefan, these are swords from the end of the 14th century, the beginning of the 15th.

The swords of Istanbul are of German origin. There is an Ottoman inventory of the swords looted from Suceava by Suleiman the Magnificent which names them very clearly: "German swords, narrow swords, with a sharp point" (approximate translation from Turkish). Western specialists, emotionally and patriotically uninvolved (such as the British military historian David Nicolle) have opined that all the Istanbul swords come from the same source (as production) and are of a characteristic German type and only the knobs of two of them, one being the one with inscription, are local products, added in Moldova. David Nicolle is the first to suggest that the guns could have been imported in pieces (separate blade, separate guard, etc.) and assembled in a local workshop. The silver thread on the sword hilt with the inscribed button was also added locally.

All the Istanbul swords (there are 3) are the same length, suggesting that they belonged to the same person. A prince did not have "one sword" but most likely a group of identical weapons. When you ordered, you didn't order one, but 10. The three swords were, as a model, an outdated one for Stephen's era. It is true that on the button with Slavonic inscription a Ștefan, the "gospodar" (ruler) of Moldova is mentioned". But before Stephen the Great, there were two "masters" with the name Stephen, who could rather be the ones referred to by the inscription on the button.
Stephen I (1394-1399) and Stephen II (1433-1435/1442-1447). Stephen the Great is Stephen III. The swords were looted together with the entire royal treasury from Suceava Citadel by Suleiman the Magnificent during the campaign to punish Petru Rareș (1538).

Adrian Andrei Rusu suggests that the sources that mention "Moldovan" or "Wallachian" weapons refer to the hand of the one who used the weapon, not to the craftsman who made it.

In short. Swords were not made in Moldova. There could be workshops to adapt, complete, repair them. Specialized craftsmen who came to Moldova to "sharpen" weapons are attested from Brașov. So even the blade sharpeners were "imported". The swords in Istambul are produced in a German workshop sometime in the early 15th century. They most likely belonged to one of the two Ștefan lords who preceded "the Great".

[Teisani]

And few more photos:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=814&postcount=16
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.30137.html
https://sword-site.com/thread/769/sword-stephen-great-iii-moldavia

[Teisani]

Since I don't know much about medieval European swords, would like to ask fellow forum members, what is your opinion on the Moldovan swords at the Topkapi palace(posted earlier), what period, what type, what manufacture...?

[Teisani]

Tomb effigy of Wallachian boyar, Mateiaș Postelnicul died at the age of 17 in 1652 - son of Udriște Năsturel and Maria Corbeanu, adopted by his uncle, Wallachian ruler Matei Basarab (born circa 1588, ruled 1632 - 1654). It formerly resided at the Târgovişte monastery, Wallachia. It represents a prince in the characteristic costume of the 17th century, dressed in a caftan finished with buttons up to the chest and fastened in the middle with a belt, and above a cloak with a collar, turned over the shoulders and with sleeves. The details of the ornamentation on the chest of the caftan are similar to the golden thread coils found in the tomb itself in 1965. Things aren't certain, but the theory goes that it was commisioned in 1652 by Matei Basarab, from a master named Elias Nicolai that was from Sibiu, Transylvania. Nicolai also likely made the voivode's effigy (1654) and that of his wife's (1653). Basarab's first effigy was destroyed in the seimen & dorobanţ revolt in 1655. A second effigy was commisioned by voivode Constantin Şerban from the same Elias Nicolai (according to documents in Cluj, Transylvania). Howevert it was only installed only in 1658 at Arnota monastery, Wallachia, when Basarab's body was moved there from Târgovişte by Mihnea III Radu (according to Matei basarab's wishes).
http://clasate.cimec.ro/Detaliu.asp?tit=Piatra-de-mormant&k=109e7c93c87c4d08ad0febf1a2c2775e
http://galeriaportretelor.ro/item/matei-basarab-9/
http://galeriaportretelor.ro/item/matei-basarab/

The primay source for this info is "Memory from the past, display for the future - early modern funeral monuments from the Transylvanian principality by Dóra Mérai (2017)". An excelent resource!

Notes: although very deteriorated, one can see the sabre at his side, and his typical for the time clothing.

[Reventlov]

Since I don't know much about medieval European swords, would like to ask fellow forum members, what is your opinion on the Moldovan swords at the Topkapi palace(posted earlier), what period, what type, what manufacture...?

I can comment on this, and share more of the information I have collected on the interesting features that appear in late medieval swords from Southeastern Europe... maybe in a new thread to focus on this earlier time period, but with wider geographic view?

[Teisani]

...maybe in a new thread to focus on this earlier time period, but with wider geographic view?
Sounds great!

[Reventlov]

New thread continues here (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28629).

[Teisani]

Two more swords from the "Muzeul Militar Naţional - Regele Ferdinand I" Bucharest.

[Teisani]

Ștefan (born 1584 - died 1602), Petru Șchiopul/Peter the Lame's son, mother Irina Botezata. He became Voivode/Prince of Moldova in february 1590 at the age of 5! Since he was so young, he ruled together with his father. He and his father stepped down from the throne in 1591. He then followed his parents into exile (Bozen, Tyrol), and after their deaths (Irina in 1592 and Peter the Lame in 1594) the Archduke of Tyrol appointed Ferdinand von Kuhbach as their guardian. Although his relatives tried to bring him back to Moldova, Emperor Rudolf II did not agree. Stefan was enrolled at the Jesuit College in Innsbruck, adopting the Catholic religion. Proclaimed of age in September 1600, he died two years later, most likely of tuberculosis. The portret resided at Ambras castle, Tyrol, Austria. It was lost however. http://galeriaportretelor.ro/item/stefan-fiul-lui-petru-schiopul/

Note: Kid's got a nice sabre, typical Ottoman hilt.

[Teisani]

Two more portraits of Vasile Lupu of Moldova. One, posted previously, but managed to find a better one.

[Teisani]

Depictions of Wallachian Voivodes in church frescos often lack weapons. These of Mircea I "the Elder" and his son Mihail are exceptions to the rule. We see them wearing daggers, not to their sides, but more like a bollock dagger.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mircea_cel_Bătrân

[Teisani]

Zotu Tzigara / Ζώτος Τζιγαράς (died in 1599, Venice)
A greek from Ioannina, became spatar of Moldova, and son-in-law to Moldovan prince, Peter the Lame. Picture is an engraving from 1637 by. And a 1630 engraving by Antonio Bosio in a universal history written by Dorotei de Monembasia (manuscript kept by Zotu) and published by Apostol Tzigara (his brother).

Secolul al XVI-lea.
Cele mai vechi date despre strămoşii pe linie paternă, Tz.-S. le-a găsit în „sipetul cel îmblănit în piele de căprioară şi frumos ferecat”, păstrat cu sfinţenie de tatăl său, alături de portretul şi sigiliul lui Zotu şi Cronica editată de Apostol.
Spătarul Zotu (Zota),de origine albaneză, avea porecla
Tzigara. La 37 de ani era mare spătar în Moldova, căsătorit
cu fiica voievodului Petru Schiopul. Avea doi fraţi: Apostol
şi Panoson. Spre sfârşitul vieţii este silit să emigreze şi
moare la Veneţia, la 12 aprilie 1599.
„Din mândrul portret al Spătarului Zotu - scrie Tz.-S. -
ţinând în dreapta spada rangului său, iar în stânga
pumnalul prins în cingătoare, am împrumutat stema lui, o
mână ţinând o spadă, - pe care am adaos-o în inima
armoariilor Samurcăşeşti, cu sprânceana şi samurul, de la
care se trage numele. Această stemă combinată alcătuieşte
ex-libris-ul meu şi e gravată pe placa de marmură de pe
locul veşnicei noastre odihne”. (Memorii, 1, p.21)
Apostol Tzigara tipăreşte pe la 1630 o istorie universală în
limba greacă, scrisă de mitropolitul Dorotei de Monembasia
şi al cărei manuscris fusese păstrat de Zotu. Apostol publică
în lucrare şi portretul lui Zotu, în jurul căruia apare scris în
limba greacă: „Icoana luminatului domn Zota Tzigara, din
Ianina, marele spătar şi ginerele serenisimului principe a
toată Moldovlachia, domnului Petru-Voievod”. Gravura îi
aparţine lui Antonio Bosio.

Typical looking boot-hilt sabre at his side. A better version can be found in the last link.
https://el.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ζώτος_Τζιγαράς#/media/%CE%91%CF%81%CF%87%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%BF%3AZotos_Tziga ras.JPG
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.revistamonumenteloristorice.ro/fisiere/BMI_1971_anul%2520XL_Nr4-006.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwilmZ3ZqtP9AhXu87sIHRcCDf8QFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2OTjp5m9svEq9XQPccq17S
https://sites.google.com/a/bcub.ro/biblioteca-centrala-universitara-carol-i-7/home/alexandru-tzigara-samurcas---biobibliografie

[Teisani]

As can be seen from the "Eques walachus" by Abraham de Bruyn 1576, and from the Wallachians in "Vera designatio Urbis in Littavia Grodnae" from Nuremberg 1568, the coat of arms associated with Wallachians (in the German lands at least) is the "lion rampant". See here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=275611&postcount=65

This is odd since Wallachia's coat of arms was the bird/eagle with a cross and usually flanked by the sun and crescent moon. You can see here the wax sigil by Voivode Mircea the Elder from 1390 (left) and the Wallachian coat of arms on a bronze cannon made locally during Voivode Petru Cercel reign 1583-85 (right).
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This CoA was used right until Wallachia's unification with Moldova in 1859.
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So why are these mid 16th century German depictions using the "lion rampant" CoA?

Well the answer may be in Ulrich von Richental's "Concilium zu Konstanz" Augsburg 1483. In it, we see 3 Wallachian cases as having a "lion rampant" CoA. It says "Der durchluchtig fürst hertzog dispott inder meren walachy des bottschafft kam mitt dem thobermur" (Ulrich Richental fol 135b)
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Actually, we see this association a few more times: Conrad Grüneberg 1483; Virgil Solis 1555; Martin Schrot 1581.
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There is also this seal atributed to Petru Cercel (that's news to me, gotta look more into that).
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Coat of Arms of "Der Dobermur her[zog] in der Hinder Walachye", Chonick, cca. 1475 from Vienna, Austria.
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Another Coat of Arms of "Thebemur aus der walachei" from Ulrich von Richental's Chronicle of the Council of Constance
225288
Sources:
https://tiparituriromanesti.wordpress.com/2012/07/31/steme-atribuite-valahiei-in-cronica-conciliului-din-konstanz-sec-xv/
http://www.hubert-herald.nl/HellasGreatValachia.htm
https://ro.pinterest.com/alin_alexandru/romanian-heraldry/

[Teisani]

So where does this "lion rampant" come from? Well according to "Basarabii Valahiei, studiu heraldic si genealogic" 2016 by Tiberiu Frăţilă-Felmer pages 47-48, a personal seal of Mircea the Elder had a lion rampant. It was used on an alliance treaty with Polish-Lithuanian king Władysław II Jagiełło from 1411. The theory is that this seal was given to Mircea by his suzeran, king of Hungary, Sigismund of Luxembourg, possibly before the Nicopolis Campaign. This is quite likely considering that the House of Luxembourg includes the red lion rampant.

Mircea the Elder's personal seal, unfortunately very faint
225290


Portret of Sigismund (almost 100 years after his death) by Albrecht Dürer in 1512. You can see the lion rampant CoA.
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[Teisani]

For anyone interested in Vlad Țepeș topics, a new YouTube channel just appeared. Corpus Draculianum English.
https://m.youtube.com/@corpusdraculianum.english

[Teisani]

A few more close-ups of Dobromir's frescos from before 1526 in Argeş, Wallachia.
First is Sf. Artemie, fashionable as always, his symmetric cross-guard sports finger-ring to protect while placing his index finger over the guard. And of course...triple fullers.
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Second, we have Sf. Mercurie, who looks sad, probably because his fingers are gonna get chopped off. Or because his octagonal pommel looks like it was beaten with an ugly stick.
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225541

[Teisani]

Warrior saints and others, from Dobrovăț monastery, Iaşi county, Moldova, painted in 1529. Not very well preserved unfortunately.
http://comoaraculturalaaromaniei.blogspot.com/2016/04/manastirea-dobrovat.html?m=1

[Teisani]

Moldovan heat treatment for ultra high-quality steel! Wow! Better than wootz! :D
Recipe from a Moldovan text by Manuil Drăghici, "Iconomia rurală și domesnică" printed at Iași, 1837.

"O căleală pentru cuțite sau pentru sabie, ca să tae fier.

Să ei spirt de râmă de pământ și pe atâta zamă de hrean pisat din el curs, să încălzești sabiia sau cuțitul în foc, și să călești în spirtul acela de patru sau cinci ori."

"A quenching for knives or for sabres, so that they cut iron.

Take earthworm spirit and as much juice drained from crushed horseradish, heat-up the sabre or knife in a fire and quench in that spirit, four or five times."

https://tiparituriromanesti.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/manuil-draghici-iconomia-rurala-si-domesnica-iasi-1837/

[Teisani]

Cozia Monastery - Bolnița Mănăstirii Cozia in Wallachia, Valcea county, 1542-43.
225627 225629
225628

[urbanspaceman]

Moldovan heat treatment for ultra high-quality steel! Wow! Better than wootz! :D
Recipe from a Moldovan text by Manuil Drăghici, "Iconomia rurală și domesnică" printed at Iași, 1837.

"O căleală pentru cuțite sau pentru sabie, ca să tae fier.

Să ei spirt de râmă de pământ și pe atâta zamă de hrean pisat din el curs, să încălzești sabiia sau cuțitul în foc, și să călești în spirtul acela de patru sau cinci ori."

"A quenching for knives or for sabres, so that they cut iron.

Take earthworm spirit and as much juice drained from crushed horseradish, heat-up the sabre or knife in a fire and quench in that spirit, four or five times."

https://tiparituriromanesti.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/manuil-draghici-iconomia-rurala-si-domesnica-iasi-1837/

EARTHWORM SPIRIT ??? Am I missing something here? Found the horseradish at local supermarket but nobody stocks earthworm spirit. Is mescal a good alternative?

[Teisani]

EARTHWORM SPIRIT ??? Am I missing something here? Found the horseradish at local supermarket but nobody stocks earthworm spirit. Is mescal a good alternative?
I have no idea what the author meant by "spirt de râmă" but look at it this way, if it doesn't work, you'll have something to drown your sorrow with.

[urbanspaceman]

Noroc!

[Teisani]

Noroc!
Sănătate!

[Reventlov]

The most recent issue of the magazine Medieval World: Culture & Conflict (formerly Medieval Warfare) includes a short piece by Adrian Gheorghe on the 15th century Wallachian military, entitled "Dracula's Men: The Equipment and Tactics of Wallachian Soldiers."

[Teisani]

The most recent issue of the magazine Medieval World: Culture & Conflict (formerly Medieval Warfare) includes a short piece by Adrian Gheorghe on the 15th century Wallachian military, entitled "Dracula's Men: The Equipment and Tactics of Wallachian Soldiers."

Thanks for the heads-up! Adrian Gheorghe is one of the members of Corpus Draculianum. For anyone interested, here he talks about Vlad Țepeș and his Wallachian army.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4GrGPJo41dc
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1HW0SqTTKyo

[Teisani]

Frescoes from the former schit at Stăneşti-Lunca, com. Lungeşti, jud. Vâlcea, Wallachia. Construction and frescoes finished on October 28th 1536. Unfortunately, they are terribly degraded. We also find a portret of Stroe Buzescu (story here (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=275525&postcount=61)) and his wife, Sima. Source: http://www.medieval.istoria-artei.ro/iconographic-programs.php

[Teisani]

Frescoes from Moldova's painted churches: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Murals_at_churches_of_Moldavia_World_Heri tage_Site?uselang=ro

A few from Probota Monastery, church Sf. Nicolae, finished in 16 Oct 1530. Some banana-hilt sabres (Ottoman hilts).

[fernando]

Looks like a music band video :o.

[Teisani]

Looks like a music band video :o.

Ooops!:)

[Teisani]

For a while now, I have been wondering if the sword at Michael the Brave's side in this depiction is just artistic licence or possibly one of the multiple swords, a man of his status, likely would have owned.

Source: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:072_-_Mihai_Viteazul.jpg#mw-jump-to-license
Mihai Viteazul at Nicopole. Engraving by Ioan Orlandi from Rome. Year 1598.
231180

Judging by the creature's-head pommel (likely a lion?), it could be one of these North Italian / South German / Swiss / Austrian sabres that tipically have a lion's head pommel. The spiral shaping on the grip is another nice detail which is found on swords from this period/region and later (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=271898&postcount=3). The one thing that doesn't match is the simple cross-guard. Usually these sabres have complex hilts. The simplest one that I could find are these two examples with S-guard. I do not know much about this type of sword, almost nothing really. Could anyone offer some of their expertise on this subject? Do you know if there are any examples with simple cross-guards?

Addendum.
Why would a Wallachian Voivode be depicted with such a sword? It could be his association with Rudolf II, Holy Roman Emperor. If the depiction is true and not pure fantasy, it might have been a gift from Rudolf to Michael. Who knows?

https://www.christies.com/lot/an-italian-falchion-late-16th-century-5699103/?intobjectid=5699103&lid=1

[Teisani]

A nice collection of pictures from 15th-16th century Moldovan painted churches can be seen here. A good source for period depictions of men at arms and their equipment.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/prof_richard/albums/page10