Five Ball Hilt spadroons [Archive] - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Chris Evans

27th June 2009, 05:32 AM

Hi Manolo,

Would a 7-ball Eaglehead be considered a spadroon?

This is what Castle had to say on the Spadroon:

The back sword, of which so much is heard in connection with gladiators stage fights, had a basket hilt similar to that of the Claymore, but a very much slenderer blade, deprived of point, like the modern Schlaeger.

A cutting sword of still narrower dimensions, and with a much simpler guard, approximating to that of the small sword, was called "Spadroon" in England; It was in fact, similar to the German cut and thrust rapier of the eighteenth century, which had been called Spadone or Spadrone since the disuse of the regular two handed swords, in the same way as the Claymore retained the old name of a very different weapon. The Germans Spadroon was a regular double edged sword, but any very light back or shearing sword was so called in England. Its play was essentially that of our modern single-stick (CE: Circa 1890), with a free use of the point, and the addition of a few drawing cuts with the false edge.

By way of an explanation, I should add that the Claymore was originally a large Scottish medieval two handed sword and later its name was given to the basket hilted swords that nowadays we associate with that country.

Some have considered the Spadroon as the precursor of the light Italian dueling sabre.

Cheers
Chris

David

27th June 2009, 06:26 AM

I hate to be so pedestrian, but there is even a Wiki on this sword form. :o :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spadroon

celtan

27th June 2009, 01:06 PM

Thanks Guys, got my answer!

Now, if I only could discover what was the significance of a 7 ball, as compared with a 5 or 3 ball hilt...

Best Regards

Manolo

I hate to be so pedestrian, but there is even a Wiki on this sword form. :o :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spadroon

Jim McDougall

27th June 2009, 07:11 PM

Thanks so much guys! Kisak, when you say get the ball rollin' .....you really mean 'rollin' ! You are exactly spot on in noting these as infantry swords, and specifically for officers.
Fernando thank you for the work on the etymology, and as you note, it is often hard to determine actual meanings or intentions in changing parlance and context. As we have learned, often terms become used colloquially in a sense, which is truly a confounding circumstance for the weapons historian.

Although I know there are certainly references on these swords online, and I have done research on them some time ago (again notes not at hand), I wanted to initiate a discussion here in which we could all participate. This is something I could not have experienced in my earlier research days B.C. (= before computer :)

Actually the material typically found online is indeed often somewhat 'pedestrian' compared to more specialized reference, it does serve well as a benchmark.
Clearly the joining of well versed international forces here will far exceed that benchmark, and hopefully we can establish more compehensive material.
Again, this is what I believe we are here for.

Nicely done on the Castle reference Chris, thank you! It seems you are extremely well versed in fencing, are you a fencer yourself? I noticed your reference to Angelo in addition to the Castle work.

Celtan, you are right on it! The seven ball eaglehead, good question, and since it is an American piece, whether these, or the French multiple ball hilts were also called spadroons is an excellent question.

I am thinking that the term spadroon may have possibly been in kind of a allusion toward fencing and smallswords, as might have been the case with military officers, who were of course gentry and often nobility in varying status. Since this was in a time of elevated neoclassicism evidenced in sword decoration (these swords actually were the British pattern 1786 infantry officers, as shown in Robson , 'Swords of the British Army' p.107) perhaps these were intended as a more fashionable style of smallsword intended for military use?

I am not sure if the term 'spadroon' followed as these became popular in France, and subsequently the U.S. nor the meaning or significance of the number of beads or balls in the hilt decoration. These things are what I hope to discover as we move on.

All best regards,
Jim

Chris Evans

28th June 2009, 02:09 AM

Hi Jim,

Nicely done on the Castle reference Chris, thank you!

And thanks to you too for your kind words and initiating this thread.

It seems you are extremely well versed in fencing, are you a fencer yourself? I noticed your reference to Angelo in addition to the Castle work.

Not really, though I did learn a bit of the military sabre-sword, as used by infantry, in my teen years, but that was using wands and doing only the basic moves over and over plus some extremely simple pre-arranged exchanges with a partner. No safety gear of any kind and rough or free play was forbidden. Boring and simple stuff at best. However, ever since then I have had a life long armchair fascination with swordplay.

BTW. A bit more information on Spadroons from E.D.Morton:

"...... It was slightly adapted, by the British Army, for use as the standard infantry officer's sword, but proving grossly inefficient in the Peninsular War (1808-14), became the subject of many complaints."

I also had a very hasty look in Norman's and whilst he devotes some space to this weapon, I could not find an answer to the perplexing numbers of balls on the knuckle guards and their curatorial significance.

Cheers
Chris

Jim McDougall

28th June 2009, 07:08 AM

My pleasure Chris. I experienced a liitle fencing also, it seems several lifetimes ago, and with the sabre as well. We did use the mask and gear, but one learned quickly as those stiff blades really hurt on a good hit, one on the side of the mask would rattle your head pretty good! Not sure if that was supposed to happen, but it sure did.

I finally dragged out my trusty Robson (not an easy task finding it in this bookmobile) and found that these infantry swords were indeed not too well thought of. On p.107 Robson notes that the M1786 hilts were flimsy wigh minimal hand protection, despite its intent for a fighting weapon with potential for cut and thrust.

It noted that prior to 1786, the symbol of authority for infantry officers was the staff weapon known as the 'spontoon'. I wonder if the term for the sword introduced to replace this might have somehow inspired the term 'spadroon', which was apparantly already in the parlance of swordplay and the fashionable smallsword?

Robson notes further that the outbreak of war with France in 1793 and further displeasure with these hilts may have led to a new style hilt in 1796, which was similar to the smallsword with the double shell guard, and using the same style blade.

With your quotation from Morton concerning the complaints on these infantry swords, which at this point must have been the shellguard pattern 1796, Robson cites another;
"...nothing could be more useless or more ridiculous than the old infantry regulation sword, it was good for neither cut nor thrust and was a perfect encumbrance".
Gen. Cavalie Mercer, remininscing about Royal
Artillery at turn of the 18th century.

It remains unclear whether the spadroon term continued to be used referring to the subsequent pattern 1796. Robson does note that the five ball hilt did become popular with English naval officers c.1790, and that the French adopted the form for naval and dragoon officers c.1800 (described as a'la anglaise= in the English style). The U.S. adopted the pattern about 1812, and seems typically associated with 'Federal Period' eagleheads.

Nick Norman was a brilliant scholar, and his book is an amazing reference using actual art and portraiture to date hilt forms. I was truly surprised that there was no attention given to this curious feature, but given the monumental undertaking of this work I suppose it would have been extremely difficult to attend to such a detail. As I have mentioned, it would seem that the only arms scholar who seems to have considered this hilt feature a curiosity or anomaly was May.....until us :)

All very best regards,
Jim

Hotspur

2nd July 2009, 03:24 PM

Hi guys, I am somewhat of a spadroon enthusiast and can't say no to just one. Some have indicated that the term more relates to hilt type than specifically the blade, as we see shallow double diamond crossections of the same period.

In terms of the beading, my impression from some studdy is that they staryted to turn up on the continent and then somewhat went wild in Birmingham and then on specifically American market swords. While seven may seem unusual, by the first quarter of the 19th century, some have shown more than seven. Celtan's seven ball, with the indicated etched rather than engraved blade and a later knuckle bow that is a squared step at the pommel end instead of the earlier period with this bird that inevitably had a round step that was actually the casting boss to be optioned as a ring, which is found on a fair number of them.

Salter just listed and quite uniform three ball that is somewhat undeniably late in make, albeit a cushion pommel. I'll see if I can pull these up via attachments here. The many beaded is clearly seen in Perterson's bible, yet not just like the seven balled example shown here. I would dispute it to be a matter of a badge of rank exceping for those early French beaded hilts (of typically three or less in contrasting scale).

My files are a bit of a mess after a meltdown on the last drive. I hope to recover my 2008 and part of this year's work. Mowbray the younger and Fladerman put together a good book as well. It includes the chronology of a good many books.

Lets see here: Some odd balls, including some spadroons with a reproduction Patton and a period 1854 for scale. The pretty Frenck one with the cigar band went to Dmitry in a momentary lapse of my mind but it did help reach my funds for the mle1854. The two eagles include one five ball. I think the general knowledge base reaches most folk as the five ballers the one they think of, so other peculiar numbers seems noteworthy but the truth is that there was a wide range and variety that (I believe) started with the French and other continental trends and fancy. More than a non-com? Sure I'd buy that philosophy but (my feeling and investigation) seeing seven on a post 1812 war eagle didn't mean diddley squat compared to some of the wilder cutlery we see from that period. Seeing more or less on an American market sword simply means a special request, or indeed an option, as I have seen other seven balls on that eagle hilt. It could happen as easily as a cutler simply filing two more graduated balls on the same hilt as the five.

Cheers

Hotspur; there is a dandy five out there somewhere that I have dubbed the earliest five baller out there but it is probably just my enthusiasm

Jim McDougall

3rd July 2009, 03:17 AM

Hi Hotspur,
I wanted to welcome you, and thank you for the great insight and illustrations on these interesting swords, outstanding grouping there!!!:)
I think there does seem to be some differences in opinion, as is often the case, whether a sword is identified by term for the blade type or hilt style.
To me the spadroon term seems to be more a colloquial term used by officers, as the M1796 infantry officers swords do not seem to be referred to as spadroons, even though the blade form I believe was essentially the same.

I agree that the five ball style turned up on the Continent not too long after the British M1786 infantry officers sword was around. My main point of interest has always been, why the five ball motif? Was it possibly a Masonic numeric association? its transference to the Continent via fraternal associations, which were certainly a gentry oriented possibility . The eventual departure from the five ball numeric seems to correspond to other numerics also significant in symbolism, three and seven. But then the variations appear, and as noted, the Federal period eagleheads with varying numbers appear in the U.S.
While personal preference may have been behind the numbers chosen, the five seem to appear on many, and there were of course significant Masons among American officers as well.

The stirrup hilt with birdhead pommel and writhen knuckleguard is really intriguing, especially with the star and sunburst on the langet. Now that one would really be a hit here in Texas!!! :)
It seems also a Federal period type, is it?

Again, thank you for these postings.

All the best,
Jim

celtan

3rd July 2009, 04:36 AM

Nice pics ! : )

I also like these...Spadroons?. I must admit they are not the most effective of weapons, somewhat unwieldy, but the straight blade and the stirrup hilt give them a stately appearance, simple yet noble. They are more suited up to be a symbol of power than an instrument of power.

I had a most illuminating exchange at another forum, I learned more from the discussion there than from reading Mowbray's. One of the local veterans, Glenn, was an expert in early american swords. He posited a relation between Ames and the early Eagle pommels. (IIRC, Ames imported them from England) . Another interesting tidbit was that they were in full fashion locally _20 years after_ their use was abandoned in Europe.

Jim: I find the numerology association with the Masons very intriguing. My grandfather was very high in the Mason's hierarchy, I didn't know this until very recently. I remember him always telling me that my "lucky number" was five, and never to forget it. What the significance of the numbers 3/5/7 in Mason's lore?

OTOH, perhaps they used 3/5/7 balls depending on the size of the striking hand?

Best

Manuel Luis

Hotspur

3rd July 2009, 07:01 AM

celtan

3rd July 2009, 05:04 PM

Talk about coincidences.

I take it then that you're the fabled Glen C. from SFI that I was mentioning?

Welcome then (again), to our merry lil' troupe .

I should have known after you mentioned Dmitri, since he has not yet posted in our forum, AFAIK. Heck, I now remember the sword you mention, with the cigar ring. It iwas indeed beautiful

I own Dmitri some pictures from a cossack sword he asked about, which as it turned out, I didn'thave time to deliver. I always honor my promises. If I post them tp Photobucket, would you mind contacting him and delivering the link?

LBNL, did Ames place his seal on the imported swords?

Best

Manuel Luis Iravedra

PD: There's a data recovery program called EASEUS that has literally worked miracles for me. AFAIK, it is not commercially available. You need to contact it's developer in China, he sells it online. G'luck..!

I hope to recover my 2008/2009 files, as there were a great many spadroon files I had amassed, along with hundreds of eagle examples. In finally getting the Medicus Collection book in hand, I have still not spend enough time with it. It does though address side by side comparisons that the early Mowbray had hoped to be a volume II for the eagles, especially the later versions. I had included that one reverse P as an example of the post 1812 trend paralleling further eagle evolution. The star langets turn up from several makers offerings and the one shown was likely through the Spies firm in NY. there are many and varied offering from Ames that have the star hilts as well. Now, if one were to draw Masonic meanings into hilts at all, the five pointed star would make more affilative sense than the number of balls. Take a look at the USA great Seal development and there is more truly apparent Masonic association.

While the Ames Eagles with the squared off knuckle bow terminus was definitely a followup of the open mouth Birmingham eagles of the first decade (19th century) Ames is found in articles regarding trade that is openly bashing the 1830 "copies" of other Ames militia type swords, both straight and curved. Soemthing of a somewhat continuing investigation for me is when Ames actually strarted use of that particular eagle. It is most likely that Ames started copying the pre 1812 Birmingham bird, applied German blades or those maunfacture and etching processes that become (claimed) propriety to Ames. The post 1812 spadroons with these eagles are not as common as the plethora of sabres that surface but both have been attributed to early N.P. Ames contracts.

Anyway, the number of balls relating Masonic association I find as false pursuit as absolutes regarding them as significant. One could apply such articles as this regarding the magic square and saying "See?See? It contains numbers of that chart" without understanding the implied numerology.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/freemasons_square_compasses.html

Cheers

Glen C. aka Hotspur; one could as easily say every bit of military iconography worldwide was meant to convey Masonic implications

Hotspur

3rd July 2009, 06:28 PM

Hi Manuel,

Dmitry should be on board here just about anytime, as it was he who promted me to register. I could have sworn I had registered in the past but it may have been the old board. Dmitry had been looking for a reference for me, which I willingly offered to Lee as well. Lee indicated he would contact Dmitry.

Yes, recovery. I hope it to be a breeze and have a piece of hardware coming in a few days. In gutting out the old tower, I'm pretty sure the failure was just a power supply but it had filled up with dust bunnies as well. As the power supply had been running very hot before the failure, I have my money on that. A good bit of the files I lost were simply picture archives and I have been going back to retreive what I can from online sources.

Topically, here are some more pictures of the one with a scabbard. This one from roughly the turn of the century. A German blade with a very American silver wash hilt. This one is actually quite dainty but in line for an early militia officer. We see sabres with this hilt more often. I have been working on restoring the silver on this one.

Cheers

Hotspur; this new laptop has much more ability than my old dinosaur

Jim McDougall

3rd July 2009, 07:22 PM

I hope to recover my 2008/2009 files, as there were a great many spadroon files I had amassed, along with hundreds of eagle examples. In finally getting the Medicus Collection book in hand, I have still not spend enough time with it. It does though address side by side comparisons that the early Mowbray had hoped to be a volume II for the eagles, especially the later versions. I had included that one reverse P as an example of the post 1812 trend paralleling further eagle evolution. The star langets turn up from several makers offerings and the one shown was likely through the Spies firm in NY. there are many and varied offering from Ames that have the star hilts as well. Now, if one were to draw Masonic meanings into hilts at all, the five pointed star would make more affilative sense than the number of balls. Take a look at the USA great Seal development and there is more truly apparent Masonic association.

While the Ames Eagles with the squared off knuckle bow terminus was definitely a followup of the open mouth Birmingham eagles of the first decade (19th century) Ames is found in articles regarding trade that is openly bashing the 1830 "copies" of other Ames militia type swords, both straight and curved. Soemthing of a somewhat continuing investigation for me is when Ames actually strarted use of that particular eagle. It is most likely that Ames started copying the pre 1812 Birmingham bird, applied German blades or those maunfacture and etching processes that become (claimed) propriety to Ames. The post 1812 spadroons with these eagles are not as common as the plethora of sabres that surface but both have been attributed to early N.P. Ames contracts.

Anyway, the number of balls relating Masonic association I find as false pursuit as absolutes regarding them as significant. One could apply such articles as this regarding the magic square and saying "See?See? It contains numbers of that chart" without understanding the implied numerology.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/freemasons_square_compasses.html

Cheers

Glen C. aka Hotspur; one could as easily say every bit of military iconography worldwide was meant to convey Masonic implications

Outstanding and well detailed information, and when I first posted this topic I had hoped to discover more on these interesting swords, I certainly had not expected to have the good fortune of such expertise entering in on the discussion. I am really glad to have Glen here with us, and sharing this insight and material. I look forward to Dmitri also participating , and seeing the core of knowledge ever increasing here!!

Very good points made on the presumption of Masonic symbolism, which as noted certainly could be construed into analysis of motif in many ways. I have often thought that in many cases determining what something is, sometimes involves clearly understanding what it is not. While Occam would probably shudder at such an idea, it is typically just an exercise I often apply in varying degree in establishing the validity in elements of data and ideas.

I am always grateful for soundly supported evidence, newly discovered data and especially well placed observations, clearly as presented here.
Again, welcome Glen, Im very glad you're here! :)

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D

3rd July 2009, 11:04 PM

Hi Jim,

I am way out of my depth stepping in on this one, so please forgive me if this information is too out dated. Regarding the 5-ball hilt, you might try finding the article by W.E. May "The 5-Ball Type of Sword" Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Vol. IV, No. 8, pp. 153-156 . In it he observes that the style came into use in the Navy shortly before 1790 and went out in 1805. He thinks it was in use in the army prior to this. He also gives a list of known variations of the motif but doesn't speculate on its significance. Seems to me I have another article on them, but, where? I will let you know if I find anything else.

I hope this helps
Jeff

Jim McDougall

3rd July 2009, 11:31 PM

Yay Jeff!!! That was the article I was trying to think of!!! Thank you for including that, and for coming in on this. It would appear this topic is even farther out of my depth than I thought, and its great to see revitalized research with all of the top guns (er, swords!) in on this.

Thanks so much,
All the best,
Jim

Hotspur

4th July 2009, 04:30 AM

A better look of my two eagle spadroons. The five ball is one of the ubiquotous Ketland typethat could easily be as late as the 1820s or 1830s but as it is ivory and not bone, that would more likely predate 1812. The fellow on the right could be the first decade 19th century and more likely right at the cusp of the century. There ar eno martial engravings on that one at all, which is a bit unusual for the genre, The middle is a sabre of the Osborn type of weeping eagle and possibly as late as the 1812 war vintage. It more reminds the the three together as Moe, Larry and Curly. My three stooges. The dirk is undefined but post 1872 and shares the same scabbard as some of the Shriners middle east looking sabres. The sabre on the right is similar to some of the mid 20th century Italian air force hilts but has a naval flip-up basket. A Horster blade. The grip had been knid of scuffed sharkskin and rather than refinish white, it is black stove paint. It is also missing its decorative crown nut and I put it together with a standard cutlery nut. Both the dirk and the late sabre were at giveaway prices but I had gone to pick up the dirk specifically (unloved and unknown by the seller).

http://h1.ripway.com/Bombadil/SFI/Eagles%20Web.jpg

Anyway, spadroons on the left. TWo very different blades in that the Ketland seems to have been a better rolling mill endeavor. The difference to the Bolton blade is just that, more irregular about its margins and less mass produced. Although labeled in the books as Ketland, the mess of cutlers in Birmingham at the time makes any batch of them by any number of shops. Blades at one, engraving and gilt at another, castings from yet a third and then possibly actually assembled in the Ketland shop but most likely contracted right up to the point up to delivery of entire swords to Ketland, who then acted as a distributor. The same thing was going on with their firearms, from what I read of that business.

Cheers

Hotspur; Mark at Old Swords has an immense database for Birmingham

fernando

5th July 2009, 09:12 PM

Hi Manolo,

Isn't it derived from the Genevan Espadron ... coming from the Italian Espadone ... or French Espadon ... or Portuguese Espadão ? .
In current portuguese connotation it means large sword; i wouldn't presently know what it meant in that period and context, though.
Fernando
Espadon would be Spanish, literally big sword. In French, a espada would be a epee. A big epee...?

I kmow this is not the right tempo, but only now i take notice of your observation on my trying to establish the ethimology of spadroon (a point also raised in this thread by Jim).
The thing is that, besides being spanish, 'espadon' is also french ... meaning a great (two handed) sword; hence 'espadonier' is fencing with a great sword.
Obviously the context of such typologies 'shrunk' a bit for the spadroon attribution :eek: .
Best wishes, my amigo.
Feenando

fernando

5th July 2009, 09:29 PM

Hi Hotspur, welcome to the Forum :) .

...Dmitry should be on board here just about anytime, as it was he who promted me to register...

Good news :cool: . I believe this is the same Dmitry who has posted some coments on a thread i have opened at SFI, concerning marks on the blade of a small sword.
I will be glad to welcome him to this Forum and also be able to continue such conversation (which was suddenly interrupted in that comunity), on the thread concerning the same subject i have previously opened in this Forum.
Fernando

fernando

5th July 2009, 10:23 PM

To tell the true, i wouldn't know what a spadroon would be called in Portuguese sword typology.
This picture represents what is called a military sword from the period of King Dom José. I seem to notice that it has some resemblance with the usually illustrated spadroons. A very fine example, with a silver hilt and an ivory grip, with silver filets. The blade is single edged by three quarters and double in the last section, with the legend VIVA EL REY DE PORTUGAL. The text also mentions that, swords of this type, were also used in the (Portuguese) Navy.
Its age is estimated around 1775-1800.
Now, would somebody tell me if this example is far from being what is considered a spadroon?
Fernando

.

celtan

6th July 2009, 11:51 PM

The word espadon is still used in Spain, but now it refers to a large digging spade.

Nando, I believe your example fully fits the bill for a spadroon.

Beautiful weapon

Best

M

Dmitry

9th July 2009, 02:59 PM

Jim McDougall

9th July 2009, 06:05 PM

Hello, gentlemen.

We might want to define the spadroon in 2 ways -
HILT - D-shaped with or without the beaded balls on the guard
or
BLADE - narrow, straight, with a cutting edge

Which way would you like to go - blade or hilt?

Hi Dmitry,
Welcome aboard!!!!! I'm really glad to have you with us!!!

Good points on the definition of the term 'spadroon' , and it is so true that terminology is often the bane of typologists with the classification of weapons. With that, I'd like to add some of my thoughts to date that the readership might find interesting.

In the study of ethnographic weapons, as an example, the swords of India carry the conundrum of the terms tulwar vs. shamshir. Is a sword with a tulwar style Indo-Persian hilt (with disc pommel) mounted with a Persian blade a shamshir, by the blade?, or tulwar ?( by definition an Indian word for 'sword', but by application construed as the familiar Indian sabre).

I have seen Persian shamshirs, which of course found great favor in Mughal courts, classified among Indian weapons as tulwars.

While on the subject of shamshirs, the topic of terminology brings up the very exotic term 'scimitar', which in my opinion is more of a linguistic term used in romanticized literature to describe curved Eastern sabres. The word itself is generally held to have been a transliterated version of the word 'shamshir' arrived at through a 'perfect storm' of translations in several interlinguistic exchanges.

Personally, I am seriously wondering if the term 'spadroon' was simply a fashionable allusion to the described move in Italian fencing, and applied by those hoping to suggest cut and thrust associations recalling those of the smallsword. It seems clear that the intent was to add a certain 'elegance' of station to these military swords for infantry officers in a time when the neoclassic theme was rapidly becoming popular.
Until the introduction of the infantry officers sword was introduced in 1786, I have understood that the polearm known as the 'spontoon' was symbolic of that rank, though in the Revolutionary War proved patently absurd in the styles of combat that became known in actions there.
Perhaps the 'oon' suffix added to the fashionable 'espadon' terms from the Italian term? although admittedly simplistic, might explain what was probably a colloquial application initially.

Returning to the neoclassic associations described in these times and these swords, the British M1796 was also a blade of this type, with a hilt clearly recalling the gentlemans smallsword, with shellguards and a classical pommel. It is unclear whether these swords following the seemingly soundly classified 'spadroons' of the M1786, now with the type having moved into naval swords and across the continent, were also termed 'spadroons'.
It would seem that the term was applied to them occasionally, but not nearly with the consistancy and conviction well established with the five ball hilt form.
In France, the examples with numeric ball motif were simply termed with reference to 'in English style', and I do not believe the examples that began use in the Federal period in the U.S. were referred to as 'spadroons'. The British naval examples I think did receive the appellation in degree, but not universally, and again, recalling the original infantry use.

It seems that by blade definition, these would simply be 'backswords'...but then there is yet another quite profoundly debated issue over the term 'broadsword' and 'backsword'....as in those times in certain instances, the broadsword term was applied to single edge swords. Perhaps this might have brought the detour, at least at that time, to spadroon rather than having this new type sword fall into that fray?

All of these thoughts are presented simply as open observations that may or may not be considered possible explanations for this intriguing term for these swords.

All the best,
Jim

fearn

9th July 2009, 10:38 PM

Hi Jim,

Just to add to the "ooning." Wasn't the blunderbuss also called a "musketoon" (link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musketoon)), especially when it was associated with naval use? I wonder if the "oon" suffix might not just be for something diminutive, but also something that was used on ships? That doesn't sound quite true for the spontoon, but still...

Just a thought,

F

Jim McDougall

10th July 2009, 01:17 AM

Hi Fearn,
Thank you for adding that, and it is definitely interesting to see that application, which I hadn't thought of. Emphatically noting that I am no linguist, for some reason I also have thought that particular 'oon' suffix was sort of diminutive, i.e. indicating a smaller more versatile weapon.
In any case good thinking, and in simply laying the cards on the table kind of discussion, it is good to be able to evaluate the potential for all of these possibilities. Sometimes things seem simplistic or outlandish, however anyone who has studied etymology or cliches and commonly used phrases, it is often amazing how these developed. I would think it quite possible the use of the spadroon term might have such beginnings.

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Linguists out there....please do not look into my ramblings and add the word 'buffoon' :) while we are ooning!

Gonzalo G

10th July 2009, 01:49 AM

usually straight sabres like this known as 'spadroons'.

I'd like to open some discussion on the term 'spadroon', the etymology, and would like to learn more on the significance of the 'five' balls or beads, or if there is any beyond simple aesthetics.

Best regards,
Jim

Jim, do you call 'sabres' those with straight blades? Wouldn´t they have to have necessarily curved blades as definition? ...just polishing my english...

Espadón, or big, or long espada (espada=sword) is the term used in spanish. I wonder if anglosaxons took that name from the spanish, as well as others, like 'rapier'. And used it, in a slightier different way...just like the term 'rapier'.
Regards

Gonzalo

Jim McDougall

10th July 2009, 03:56 AM

Hi Gonzalo,
Good note there! Actually though, in the complete confusion of terminology, these 'spadroons' or whatever you call them :) actually on occasion it seems I have seen referred to as 'straight sabres' , perhaps in reference to thier manner if use, again the cut and thrust conundrum. I cannot place exactly which places I have seen this, but it was certainly a bit of an anomaly. I know that of course fencing sabres are with straight blade, and the early 20th c. produced swords such as the British M1908, American Patton M1913 and the Spanish M1907 'Puerto Seguro' all with straight blades were often termed 'sabres', obviously contrary to the standard definition, alluding more to issue cavalry swords.
In Arabic, the term sa'if (=sword) can be equally applied to sabres and pallasch type swords.
All the best,
Jim

Hotspur

10th July 2009, 01:56 PM

Jim McDougall

10th July 2009, 05:12 PM

Straight sabres can well turn into a ninja vs pirate debate. Looking far enough back to the origin of the term sabre will eventually go back to an eastern European term simply meaning to cut. What cuts better? Straight or curved? Pirates win that debate :D I believe even the Wiki for sabre acknowledged my insistence that the root of the word simply meant "to cut".

Neumann seems like a long lost uncle to me and is fond of confusing any issue. A straight sabre is simply a straight cutter (see above) and perhaps a tongue in cheek to keep the beer (and/or popcorn) flowing.

I may be missing my mind more than anything else but I believe the bastardization of the latin to use the term of spadroon may well be more Germanic in thought.

Anyway, having started to go through some lost drive files; I wanted to share another gaper with seven balls. It looks to me to be another optioned Ames casting (or not). :p :D

Cheers

Hotspur; I'm pretty sure I have more examples of the 7s as well

Well said Glen! I think we can all recall the knight vs. ninjas or Samurai or whatever it was debates! :) which could easily carry on ad infinitum.
Arms and armour terminology as I earlier noted, when trying to examine etymologically, is completely maddening, and typically is fruitless in meaningful discussion of the weapon itself.

My interest in the term spadroon is simply out of extremely long standing curiosity in reviewing the fascinating glossary of such terms, and the 'straight sabre' debate goes with the backsword/broadsword what is a short sword what is a dirk etc. puzzles.

Good suggestion on the Germanic possibility for the 'oon' suffix, which I hope the linguists lurking out there might address.

Neumann is truly an intriguing guy, and I had a wonderful conversation with him at Timonium last March. It is always exciting to see the kind of passion he carries for his field of study, and hearing the stories behind his now venerable reference and its writing.

I'm really enjoying this discussion on these fascinating swords, and hope we can continue learning more on them. Thank you for sharing all these great examples.....and I hope you can get the gremlins outa your computer :)

All the best,
Jim

fearn

10th July 2009, 09:47 PM

More on oon (shortening this up, does this make me a moron?):

Can't vouch for it's total correctness, but here's someone's take on where "oon" came from in English (link (http://www.io.com/~dierdorf/ww-40.html))

"The Romance languages use an -one or -on suffix to mean a larger or augmented version of the base word; it's often modified to "-oon" in English. In addition to "trombone", other examples are balloon (big ball), bassoon (deep bass), medallion (large medal), galleon (a ship larger than a galley), cannons and canneloni (big canes or hollow tubes — cannoli are little ones), saloon (a large salle, room), and so on. A squadron is a group of soldiers bigger than a squad. (Squad itself is ex-quadra, a square.) The original meaning of cartoon was a poster-sized image, from Italian carta-one, large paper, and a baboon is etymologically a "big baby". [13Nov08] A macaroon is etymologically a large macaroni, although the taste is now somewhat different. [19Jun09] French bouffer meant to swell or puff up; this led to both buffoon (a clown) and the bouffont hair style. Buffer in the sense of "cushion" or "shock absorber" is also from this root. This has been generalized to anything "in the middle" — buffer state, a computer's buffer memory, and so on.
...
Just to aggravate us, French sometimes used the -on or -oon suffix to mean smaller, not larger. A platoon is French peloton, a very little ball (pellet is already a diminutive), and a pontoon seems to have originally been a "small bridge" or maybe "temporary bridge" — Latin pons. The French word for "small cat" is chaton, which has been borrowed into English as kitten."

Not sure it helps, but don't ya love language?

Best,

F

Jim McDougall

10th July 2009, 10:32 PM

Hi Fearn,
Thats amazing ! Why couldnt they just call these things a straight sword or classical sword or whatever....but noooooo! Somebody had to get fancy and use this lah dee dah term :)
It really is kinda fun to look into words sometimes though....even though this one kind of makes ya want to........swoon!!! :)
Sorry.

All the best,
Jim

Hotspur

10th July 2009, 11:47 PM

Smore. Needless to say, I like eagles. There are a couple of beady eyes in one shot that show new reproductions that are surfacing and aged as old. Some of the other hilts are not strictly beaded but follow a trend of matched elements and even single tribute to a bead. Some are some very French hilts and show bead and or lozenge elements. Still just stylin' as I see it. One reverse p hilt with no beading on a late American flavor spadroon. Also one single example by itself because it looks like one that is moving on the market again. Some of them have become kind of like good friends as they make the rounds.

http://files.myopera.com/3sails/albums/811446/eagleheadclose.jpg
http://files.myopera.com/3sails/albums/811446/Hiltsb1.jpg
http://files.myopera.com/3sails/albums/811446/Hiltsb.jpg

Cheers

Hotspur; of course, offered for education purposes only and have been harvested all over the net

Gonzalo G

11th July 2009, 03:08 AM

Straight sabres can well turn into a ninja vs pirate debate. Looking far enough back to the origin of the term sabre will eventually go back to an eastern European term simply meaning to cut. What cuts better? Straight or curved? Pirates win that debate :D I believe even the Wiki for sabre acknowledged my insistence that the root of the word simply meant "to cut".

Neumann seems like a long lost uncle to me and is fond of confusing any issue. A straight sabre is simply a straight cutter (see above) and perhaps a tongue in cheek to keep the beer (and/or popcorn) flowing.

I may be missing my mind more than anything else but I believe the bastardization of the latin to use the term of spadroon may well be more Germanic in thought.

Anyway, having started to go through some lost drive files; I wanted to share another gaper with seven balls. It looks to me to be another optioned Ames casting (or not). :p :D

Cheers

Hotspur; I'm pretty sure I have more examples of the 7s as well

Are you saying that the term ´szabla´does not designate a historical type of weapon, but anything that cuts? ...I don´t believe so. And if this term designates specifically a curved sword of certain type, I don´t understand why in english you say there is confussion of terms, since this term passed to several languajes to designate specifically the same type of curved weapon. Wouldn´t it be the confussion elsewere? But I am not questioning anything or discussing anything, just asking to the experts what is the meaning of ´sabre´in english. The sword Puerto Seguro is not a ´sabre´ in spanish, but a sword, since it has a straight blade, and it is called, not very correctly, éspada-sable´(sword-sabre), because it has a straight blade, but the mountings or garnments in the style of a sabre. The correct term for this kind of sword is ´espada de montar´, meaning a mounting or cavalry sword.

It is correct in arab to call ´saif´all those weapons, since ´saif´mens only generically a sword. It is only an occidental cause of confussion, since arbitrarily occidental collectors called ´saif´only to a certain type of sword. Knowing swords in one thing. Knowing the language, is another. I don´t think we can call the viking swords a ´sabre´, just becauser they ´cut´.

Gonzalo G

11th July 2009, 03:32 AM

The Romance languages use an -one or -on suffix to mean a larger or augmented version of the base word; it's often modified to "-oon" in English. In addition to "trombone", other examples are balloon (big ball), bassoon (deep bass), medallion (large medal), galleon (a ship larger than a galley), cannons and canneloni (big canes or hollow tubes — cannoli are little ones), saloon (a large salle, room), and so on. A squadron is a group of soldiers bigger than a squad. (Squad itself is ex-quadra, a square.) The original meaning of cartoon was a poster-sized image, from Italian carta-one, large paper, and a baboon is etymologically a "big baby". [13Nov08] A macaroon is etymologically a large macaroni, although the taste is now somewhat different. [19Jun09] French bouffer meant to swell or puff up; this led to both buffoon (a clown) and the bouffont hair style. Buffer in the sense of "cushion" or "shock absorber" is also from this root. This has been generalized to anything "in the middle" — buffer state, a computer's buffer memory, and so on.
...
Just to aggravate us, French sometimes used the -on or -oon suffix to mean smaller, not larger. A platoon is French peloton, a very little ball (pellet is already a diminutive), and a pontoon seems to have originally been a "small bridge" or maybe "temporary bridge" — Latin pons. The French word for "small cat" is chaton, which has been borrowed into English as kitten."

Not sure it helps, but don't ya love language?

Best,

F
Fearn, you are right, the romance languajes, have this characteristics. But ´peloton´in spanish means big ball, and the word ´pelota´is not french. Pellet is not a romance word, but an alglosaxon word taken by several languajes. Ponton is not the bridge, but the name of certain type of elements designed to make a floating bridge once they are ensambled. The result is called a pontoon bridge or a bridge made of pontoons. But chaton is alright a small cat or a cat´s puppet. Without any reference or proof, I don´t see a ´germanic´presence in the making of the word ´spadroon´, since it seems it has no resemblance in any way with this language, which I know a little.
Regards

Gonzalo

Hotspur

11th July 2009, 03:50 AM

Click Me You Know You Want To (http://www.google.com/search?q=szabla+word+origin+to+cut&btnG=Search&hl=en&safe=off&client=opera&rls=en&hs=kcn&sa=2)

fearn

11th July 2009, 06:04 AM

Come on Hotspur!

Anyway, Gonzalo, Bridge in French is "pont" so I think that's a proper derivation for pontoon (little bridge). As for that ESPADroon... what do you think? Is it a little sword, a big sword, or a frenchified spanish sword? :D

Frank

Hotspur

11th July 2009, 07:14 AM

Hi Frank,

Just where should we go? :) I am not intending to debate the reason Polish swords were termed such. It is just an old tired discussion to me. Nor am I excusing Neumann and others regarding straight sabres. It is simply information I would be repeating myself again and again, hence leaving it as a link.

Cheers

Hotspur; I am truly not one to worry about it a great deal

fearn

11th July 2009, 04:50 PM

Sorry, I don't click on links that say "Click on me." Call it paranoia.

fernando

11th July 2009, 05:47 PM

Jim McDougall

11th July 2009, 06:17 PM

OK, I think I have taxed my limited ability to comprehend linguistics beyond the limit :) Regardless of whatever reasons there have been for calling a sword one thing or another, and whether it falls correctly into the perameters of the languages noted, it sort of is what it is.

We know the 'katar' daggers of India were inadvertantly labeled such in an error of early arms writers, and should be called 'jemadhar'. But after the term has become formly emplaced in arms literature for over a century, it seems moot to try to correct what is colloquially established.

This discussion of the term spadroon has been enlightening and fascinating, but I'm all for learning more on the forms of these 'swords' and the variations of examples from England, to the U.S. and France.
Glen, BTW, thank you for the fantastic 'harvesting' !! and showing all the great examples.

I think it would be a great idea for a thread, or perhaps number of threads, to discuss for example a glossary of sword terms, with each example having some of the etymology and colloquial possibilities. I know there are many terms with considerable debate that has ensued through the years, for example pas' d' ane ; fuller/ channel/ blood gutter etc. .
Not here, but on another thread. I am incredibly impressed with the knowledge on linguistics and etymology seen here!!! so it would seem we are well versed enough to archive a great thread on these.

Meanwhile, back to the 'spadroons' (aka straight blade swords).

All very best regards,
Jim

Hotspur

11th July 2009, 07:19 PM

Sorry, I don't click on links that say "Click on me." Call it paranoia.

Hah, I can understand that from the perspective as a complete stranger but I hope all true arms collectors and scholars can share in trust. My browser shows my links when I mouse over such links. It is just a search result from Google for szabla word origin and meanings. To me, a more cheery type of post than "Hey dimwit, run a Google search for szabla" That process exactly was my realization some years ago in the midst of a thread's death throes regarding the meaning of the word sabre. Unresolved in the end? I dunno
;)

Cheers

Hotspur; I will admit to once linking to a Johhny Cash mariachi intro wav file when regarding Mexican blades

Rick

11th July 2009, 07:36 PM

Sorry, I don't click on links that say "Click on me." Call it paranoia.

Goes to Google results for :

' szabla word origin to cut ' :)

Jeff D

11th July 2009, 07:57 PM

Anyway, the number of balls relating Masonic association I find as false pursuit as absolutes regarding them as significant. One could apply such articles as this regarding the magic square and saying "See?See? It contains numbers of that chart" without understanding the implied numerology.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/freemasons_square_compasses.html

Cheers

Glen C. aka Hotspur; one could as easily say every bit of military iconography worldwide was meant to convey Masonic implications

Hi Glen,

While I agree with avoiding the latest fashion of looking for Masonic conspiracies every where, I have learned to listen very carefully to Jim's hunches. On Mark Cloke's site ( http://www.oldswords.com/resources/articles.php ) he has a PDF of John Hamilton's article Swords of the Masonic Orders . There does appear to be a number of five and seven ball hilts associated with the Masons.

Nothing conclusive but, where there is smoke there often is fire.

All the Best
Jeff

Jim McDougall

11th July 2009, 08:03 PM

Hah, I can understand that from the perspective as a complete stranger but I hope all true arms collectors and scholars can share in trust. My browser shows my links when I mouse over such links. It is just a search result from Google for szabla word origin and meanings. To me, a more cheery type of post than "Hey dimwit, run a Google search for szabla" That process exactly was my realization some years ago in the midst of a thread's death throes regarding the meaning of the word sabre. Unresolved in the end? I dunno
;)

Cheers

Hotspur; I will admit to once linking to a Johhny Cash mariachi intro wav file when regarding Mexican blades

Well noted Glen! Another thread in 'death throes' with the discussion of the meaning of the word sabre? What a shock! LOL! :) I wish I could count the number of such discussions over the years, and the inevitably unresolved muddle that was typically left. ....also try the 'origins' of the sabre for really hot debates.

I somewhat understand the note by Frank on links, the daily barrage of spam around has truly gotten people paranoid.....just a knee jerk thing. However the staff here work incredibly hard at keeping this flak under control....and the right level of kevlar around the forum. ..old habits die hard though.

It really is amazing some stuff that comes up in searches ......the Wiki link was interesting, and I did click on it, though admit I felt a little of the same apprehension as it is against my grain....I only did it cuz I know you Glen :)
Maybe a few words on what the link is would be gooder :) trying to keep in line with the linguistics theme.

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Loved the Mariachi analogy in the search on Mexican blades....gotta admit it is perfectly placed theme music!! But then there was my experience with hard rock, stiff drink and a tulwar.....uh, took out a ceiling fan..oops.

fearn

11th July 2009, 08:16 PM

Hi Hotspur and Jim,

As I said, it's paranoia, not necessarily rational. Of course, one could consider that posting a description of the link is a politeness to the reader, who gets to decide whether it's worthwhile following the link or not.

As for debating the origin of saber...well, we could debate whether the short ones are knives or swords, just to make the argument really messy.

Best,

F

Hotspur

11th July 2009, 09:19 PM

Hi Glen,

While I agree with avoiding the latest fashion of looking for Masonic conspiracies every where, I have learned to listen very carefully to Jim's hunches. On Mark Cloke's site ( http://www.oldswords.com/resources/articles.php ) he has a PDF of John Hamilton's article Swords of the Masonic Orders . There does appear to be a number of five and seven ball hilts associated with the Masons.

Nothing conclusive but, where there is smoke there often is fire.

All the Best
Jeff

Thanks for the link, I am downloading now (dial-up). I admire researchers a good bit, yet tend to be quite contentious regarding speculations and hunches. I know I pursue my own a good bit of the time. Another had prompted me regarding some other Ames information and ended up looking at the perspective a good way back in the Ames family history. I will read it though, as something that will be on my bookshelf. Another article from MAA cued some more though about Ames in particular and as there are two seven ball examples I blame on Ames castings (or his supplier) Hamilton's notes are something I should be reviewing (along with adding his Ames book at some point). The thing is though that he seems a bit oblivious about the family history (in print anyway). Some of the Ames letters online are fascinating. Agreeably, a proponderance of American officers were MAsons, or affiliated with a good many participating with anumber of fraternities. I look forward to reading the article.

Wait, wait wait, it is about a twenty minute download for me but I will check it out.

Cheers

Hotspur; still twenty minutes, yarrrrrr

Hotspur

11th July 2009, 10:44 PM

Ok Jeff, file duly noted.

First and correct me if I am wrong, there is a single cushion pommel seven beaded sword that happens to have Masonic iconography. We'll come back to that and perhaps merge or move it to a thread I initiated today regarding military swords used in fraternal society.

Secondly and while freely admiting to not being involved in Free Masonry, the article is thirty years old. While not dismissing such work, I have at times spent a good bit of browsing in the past decade reading about it. Here is a good site. Especially so for iconography. that is a nice chart in the Hamilton article though, a nice job with that.

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/fraternalism/chronology_fraternal_organizations_america.htm

Let me see if I can find some more I plumbed the depths and angles of such history.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/

I can just about paraphrase the Hamilton article historical notes from the bookshelf I have there, simply in regarding notes about the Templars, Free Masons and development of fraternties both in England and somewhat worldwide (including American growth). South Carolina history is another interesting portal for such research.

Another older and goody from my bookmarks regarding guilds, craft and economic growth.
http://www.takver.com/history/benefit/ctormys.htm

Getting back to beaded swords, I think not as associative as that single article example.

I do find the Hamilton artice quite useful to me in some aspects but not so much regarding what amounts to fraternal presentation swords. While interesting to in a different association of/to fraternities, what I find specifically of interest are some fairly plain swords that incorporate private purchase requests. Presentation swords are yet another category and as we all may agree that many military officers have been or are Free Masons, in the end, it's just a sword. I do not see that the number of beads are specifically engineered for Free Masons or even officer grades.

My feeling is that a continued discussion regarding fraternal swords, while quite parallel in this thread's interest, is a sidebar that might be better suited in a seperate thread than spadrone examples. Either that or I'm quite agreeable to attaching a mess o pictures of Shriners sabres, a dandy 1796 lc lodge sword and an exceptional British yeoman cavalry sabre with some really neat Scottish rite stuff engraved and gilded. Of those three I listed, it is just the Shriners sabres I would specifically assign to only fraternity. Some examples have been out there listed at dealers for some years (as of a few days ago, including a dandy skull and bones hilt for really short money.

Cheers

Hotspur; I like this spadroon a lot. Actually a couple to share. Oh yes, how about the diamonds in the counterguards? ;) ;)

Jeff D

11th July 2009, 11:15 PM

Hi Glen,

You are absolutely correct this article is hardly convincing that there is a definite link between the beads and the Masons. However it is definite that the hilt type was used on at least one occasion. I know absolutely nothing of the Mason organization, other then it liked secret symbols (even this I don't know for sure). Rather than show multiple examples of Known Mason swords with associated known symbols on them, do you have any examples of these known symbols on working military pieces? was it ever allowed? I don't mean added later to retired blades as Hamilton has cited.

All the Best
Jeff

Hotspur

11th July 2009, 11:37 PM

Hi Jeff, I'll add some images in the other thread I began. I panicked in thinking I had lost that one on a drive. I hesitate to just link some dealer offerings still listed but that one yeoman cavalry sword sold some time ago.

Cheers

Hotppur; oddly. it was the Odd Fellows that first drew my curiousities

Rick

11th July 2009, 11:41 PM

Please don't link to any items currently for sale . :)

Jim McDougall

12th July 2009, 12:46 AM

Jeff, thank you so much for the kind words, and especially for the confidence in the observations and thoughts I often express. That really means a lot .

Glen, thank you for your open minded approach in examining and reopening thoughts open for consideration in this topic.

I have often discovered that the subject of symbolism in motif and decoration on swords is typically met with considerable difference of opinion and responses from indifference and skepticism to even outright hostility in thankfully few cases.

It has been many years since I first considered the possibility of Masonic symbolism in these swords, and as I recall, even in communication with Brian Robson, he discounted the idea, claiming that the five ball motif was likely an aesthetic selection.
In my research I found the 1963 article by W.E.May in the Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, and while he did not express the Masonic idea, he was intrigued by the motif, and noted that he hoped further research would ensue.
In years to follow, I began studying markings on blades, and discovered the talismanic and cabbalistic motif profoundly occurring on British and European military blades. It seems that the 18th century was highly charged with secret societies, fraternal groups, and occultism, which had carried the concept of superstition and talismanic properties imbued in weapons from the earlier 'Passau Art'.
Among the societies originating in the early 18th century was of course the Freemasons, which had membership not only in England and Scotland, but in France. This brotherhood had ties much deeper than politics or loyalty to a crown, and was nearly quintessant in its ancient symbolism and fealty.
In a time wrought with occultism, elitism in fashion and culture, and the search for cultural superiority, the gentry often sought romanticized gallantry in military appontment of rank.

As I have mentioned, the spadroon was introduced as a corresponding military counterpart to the gentlemans smallsword, and neoclassic fashion was clearly seen in the stylish hilt and classic style pommel. My mention of the use of the term 'spadroon' was simply to illustrate the Italian fencing term which might have alluded to the familiarity of these officers of gentry origins and such training. That they would have quite likely been members of Masonic lodges is also most likely, and the thought of the numeric five representing such allusion seems to me quite plausible.

I recently watched a documentary concerning Masonic symbolism and the possibilities associated with the symbolism found on the dollar bill. While certainly much of the material is quite contestible, there are a number of elements that are not only plausible, but compelling. Prior to the American Revolution, the forefathers of the country were not only British subjects, but many, including George Washington and more, were Masons. The French, who were profoundly allied in the Revolution, were also in many cases, of Masonic lodges.
It is interesting that this numeric ball motif found its way across the English Channel to France, as a model for a sword pattern, when France seldom was a follower in adopting weapon forms. It is further interesting that the pattern seems to have followed to the United States, in a time when strife between the U.S. and England remained in place despite strained diplomatic ties.
Perhaps more the result of fraternal solidarity ?

This is pretty much my presentation of my case, and whether or not it can be proven, I still think it is worthy of consideration. I very much believe that Masonic symbolism has long existed subtly in military tradition, and this, and other instances deserve further research.

All best regards,
Jim

Hotspur

12th July 2009, 01:54 AM

Hi Jim,

What I am unclear on entirely but don't ascribe to is that beaded hilts (of any number) originated in England. What I see in terms of browsing and cataloging these, along with the more recent fascination of seven vs five, or three vs one; it just doesn't add up to me as Masonic influence. the grandaddy five ball examples of those that I log looks more in line with continental origin. Albeit, someone else I have prodded mentions it as probably later than my impressions of it but does agree it is not English in its evolution.

Mark of Old Swords has an immense amount of data for Birmingham and had offered it on dvd but I have failed to follow up with him due to other things going on. if the evolution and connotation of the meaning evolved in England, comparisons of cutlers on either side would perhaps settle my thought of European influences and the evolution of beading.

A couple of more attachments here from some old auction pages referencing that naval counterguard on a french anglais pattern.

I did watch the very same documentary regarding Washington, the stars and the government's icons. Remarkably though is that Washington became a mason during the French and Indian War (from my understanding of his biographies) and that it was not a case of nepotism (of which some has been cause to approach me about for personal references).

My late younger brother (rip) was quite enthralled with the math, symbology, history of Free Masonry from the 80s to 1994 and desputed my truth to his last breath because he was determined I was in the order (which I'm not). Oldest son to oldest son stuff. I'm also going to attach a symbol for the second son and South Carolina ;)

Cheers

Hotspur; all intresting stuff, that is true

Jim McDougall

12th July 2009, 05:12 AM

Hi Glen,
Im really glad you started the other thread on fraternal swords and the military, and we've got great discussion now on both fronts. Thank you.

I would really like to know of earlier use of the numeric ball motif on another type of hilt in earlier times and where. I really cant think of anything offhand, and the first example of the five ball has always been to me the British five ball.
W.E. May ("The Five Ball Type of Sword Hilt", Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Vol. IV, #9,1963, pp.153-56) notes, "...as far as I have been able to ascertain, swords with the five ball type of hilt came into use in the Royal Navy shortly before the year 1790, as an alternative to two or three other types".
He notes further that the Army also had this type hilt, but he was unclear on whose came first.
It should be noted that Robson's "Swords of the British Army" describing the M1786 Infantry officers spadroon with five ball hilt, did not come out until 1975.

In " Naval Swords" by P.G.W. Annis ( May's co-author in the comprehensive 2 volume "Swords for Sea Service", 1970) also published in 1970, Annis states;
"...the combination of a beaded guard with a grip shaped to the hand may be considered a relatively late feature", as he is describing naval swords at the end of the 18th century.

Mark Cloke is a great researcher who goes into fantastic detail in his studies on weapons, particularly regulation patterns and his work I consider a valuable resource, and I would very much like to know if he has more detail on this topic.

I regret the loss of your brother, who must have been a wonderfully inquisitive and fascinating fellow, and you both must have had great conversations with the knowledge and interest you have in history.

As always, terrific illustrations you post!! and what a great Federal gorget!

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D

12th July 2009, 06:08 AM

Hi Jim and Glen,

I am sure you are aware of this quote from John Wilkinson Latham's British Military Swords 1966 on Page 15.

"King George III's order of 3 April 1786 was that the Infantry were to have a strong cut-and-thrust sword 32 in. long and 1 in. wide at the shoulder, the hilt to be of steel, gilt or silver, according to the buttons of the uniform. Although there are no further descriptions of the sword, nor can any illustration specifications be found, the author feels certain that the sword illustrated at Plate 18 is in fact this one."

I don't know if this goes for or against the Masonic connection, or even if this is still considered correct. However it does place the five ball in the infantry by 1786 according to Mr Wilkinson Latham.

All the Best
Jeff
Plate 18

Jeff D

12th July 2009, 07:10 AM

If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of :cool: ) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/features/060421_firstRoyal.html

All the Best
Jeff
:cool:

Jim McDougall

12th July 2009, 03:20 PM

Thanks so much Jeff, I knew of the Robson reference to the 1786 Infantry sword, but its been years since I've looked at the 1966 John Wilkinson-Latham reference (another of my very first volumes!!). I appreciate hearing that reference as well, and this does support the appearance of these five ball hilts around that time.
The Masonic theory for this motif is of course based primarily on the cultural climate of the times and the observations noted and discussed. While there is the suggestion that this type of numeric groupings of beads/balls on hilts precedes these examples, especially in Continental countries, then the theory of course would go 'back to the drawing board'.

I would sincerely appreciate anyone having knowledge or examples of any sort of multiple ball motif of this type from earlier swords and other countries letting us know.

I think I'll do some further checking into smallsword motif.

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D

12th July 2009, 04:15 PM

Hi Jim and Glen,

Michel Petard in Des Sabres et Des Epees States that the "5-ball" style was taken from the English in 1795.

All the Best.

Jim McDougall

13th July 2009, 04:55 AM

Outstanding Jeff!!! and thank you for the excellent plate.
Its great that you have Petard.........please dont tell me you have Aries!!
You've really put together quite a library there.

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D

13th July 2009, 05:23 AM

......please dont tell me you have Aries!!

Since 1997, I had another life before you ethnographic guys got ahold of me :cool:

All the Best
Jeff

Hotspur

13th July 2009, 07:24 PM

Thanks Jeff for the plate. Another had offered some other text and plate in formation with descriptions of French swords from the first empire on. That naval counterguard exactly is on a sword I transfered. My previously held example has been described first empire, so yes; a little later than the five ball trend itself. I'm also attaching a hilt that is rather crude. Also, though, from other texts placing it to the '90s but the blade possibly earlier. All I have read of the five-balls (and agreeably I have far fewer text references) has been mentioned as the '80s when they first appear. This one does not look very English at all in build. Possibly even assembled in the colonies but others have refered to it as continental (yet without a French provenance)

I guess I have to more than bow to the Anglaise designation as definitive but I wll continue to look at other origins and evolution.

Cheers

Hotspur; great stuff and thanks again

Hotspur

13th July 2009, 07:58 PM

If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of :cool: ) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/features/060421_firstRoyal.html

All the Best
Jeff
:cool:

Well, I would somewhat disagree some of the information as published being a beginning of royalty buying into guild/craft membership. Somewhat ancillary was an earlier link I offered regarding trade, guilds and sponsorship. George III was also the underwriter to the Odd Fellows and granted their charter. An affair that goes right back to the more open/publicly known network of the Freemasons.

King George’s father was a Freemason. Frederick Lewis, Prince of Wales (1707-1751), was heir to the throne of his father King George II. Frederick Lewis was of paramount importance because he was the first Royal Freemason. Once royalty entered the Craft, then everybody wanted to join, and the fraternity was assured of success. Frederick Lewis led a hedonistic lifestyle and died before his father, thrusting his son George III onto the thrones of England and Hanover in 1760 at the age of 20.

At about the time that Friday the 13th came about, England continued to support the Templars through transfers to the Hospitalliers. Few were charged with anything so much as a modern description of a misdemeanor. EIII became the treasurer of all the efforts previoulsy administered by the Templars. In a sense, Free Masonry and the Templars kind of relate an unbroken chain of networking and guild (craft) that parallels later advents such as the Odd Fellows. Edward the third bought his ticket into the linen armourers guild, his sons likewise. The Order Of The Garter was another continuation for fraternal purposes.

Then later in the 14th century being led to London against the same family during the march of Wat Tyler (sic). Was that last simply a guild struggle? I dunno.

Cheers

Hotspur; I am now probably just rambling about my readings from different stories of history

Jim McDougall

13th July 2009, 08:23 PM

Absolutely Glen, research never stops!!! :)

The 'spadroon' shown in the top picture I believe is British as the 'cigar band' affectation did not occur elsewhere, as I understand. Interesting image of Pegusus (?) in the guard, and I am wondering if this might have been special order (as I believe these were) possibly to a yeomanry officer? Returning to Masonic, and even perhaps heraldic symbolism, which such unusual image might have associations with, there were instances where the lodge sentinels, the Tiler, actually had swords made for thier duties. Again, the sword could certainly have been worn in regimental duty as well.

The second sabre seems profoundly French, the black ebony fluted vertically is an affectation seen in many French sabres of the turn of the century. Also the blade in cross section with fuller to centre point is the Montmorency cross section I believe, also of this period. Interestly James Wooley of Birmingham often used this style cross section in his blades, so there remains that possibility.

As devils advocate, I have found some information that may subscribe to the aesthetics approach, and I include it here as I think it is important to present all possibilities whether for or against a theory.

In going through many references on smallswords looking for possible examples using this type of motif, it is interesting that the late Mr. A.V.B. Norman, one of the most astute scholars on hilt forms, does not make specific mention of any possible symbolism in these five ball hilts. I looked through both his "Smallswords and Military Swords" (1966) as well as the magnificent "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820" (1980) which revealed no mention than the obvious description using the motif.

It does seem that smallswords of the 18th century, and particularly after the advent of the rococo period, showed an affinity for representation of paste jewellery, indeed many hilts were fashioned by jewellers. The closeness of beads to images of pearls is quite clear, and in certain Eastern swords with bearings enclosed in open channels the beads are often called 'pearls'.
The fascination for the Eastern European hussars and thier sabres was well established and their flamboyant fashion much admired.

One very important and well known regiment was that of Esterhazy's Hussars in mid to latter 18th century. The sabres of officers of this colorful Hungarian regiment (as seen in Wagner "Cut and Thrust Weapons", p.406, pl.36) has a string of beads (pearls) extending the length of the knuckleguard.
Whether this rather ostenascious style extended into the sabres of other officers of the time is unclear, and it hardly seems that this affectation on a single type of sabre used by the limited number of officers might influence an entire sword style. However, it does seem that the motif did appear in a number of places, which may have entered into the design.

Returning to Masonic possibilities, it is the numeric that is key, not the element of motif.

All best regards,
Jim

Hotspur

13th July 2009, 09:03 PM

Hi Jim,

The figure in wonder is a hippocanthus (also written as campe and campus), or sea horse and very much a French sword "in the style of", as are others depicted above. I will try to find the first empire example of a ship's transom decoration but am still plowing through old and misplaced image libraries (although I did get my drive loaded to this one). I do have another plate that was shared with descriptions as well but I am shamed not to remember the book offered (if not ideed the same text another had put up).

It had been described by a dealer as an American artillery officer sword via his seeing the pommel type and as described in Peterson. I took it as a dragoon de ville epee before I had it in hand and then sea horses came into it.

The practice of three swords for an officer was not (apparentlY) singular to French practices but the one I pictured fits those descriptions exactly. A dress, or about town eppe. A highly decorated parade sword and duty sword of plainer nature also work in a trio of emsemble.

I wonder if the term horse latitudes for the Atlantic is a purely French or British trait.

Cheers

Hotspur; lost my hydraulics Friday and need to go chat up my mechanic

Edit for those two book plates and I'm unsure who the author is or the book title. It is firgure 9 that lists them as "a l'anglaise"

Jim McDougall

14th July 2009, 01:03 AM

Since 1997, I had another life before you ethnographic guys got ahold of me :cool:

All the Best
Jeff

LOL! Know what ya mean! Once upon a time I collected British regulation cavalry swords. Just for kicks I looked up "Swords for Sea Service" (2 vol.)...yikes...think I better put em in a vault!

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D

15th July 2009, 12:26 AM

Hotspur; I like this spadroon a lot. Actually a couple to share. Oh yes, how about the diamonds in the counterguards? ;) ;)

Hi Glen,
Sorry I missed this question on the first go round. I am not sure what the diamond is ment for. I read somewhere that Francis Thurkle used it. I have no idea what it represents. I will see if I can find the reference.

Hi Jim,
I am glad I am not the only one :D

All the best.
Jeff

Hotspur

15th July 2009, 03:31 AM

Hi Jeff,

That example was the very first time I had seen these in counterguards. I made the mistake of not striking the iron when it was hot and that one dissapeared back in 2006. I am currently stalking another spadroon that bears the diamond and would be curious (but should be poking around Mowbray's tome again) who supplied blades for Thurkle. Other Englishmen that responded to my query back then mentioned it was just another styling. I believe Jim had some thoughts on a sweetheart counterguard design on a late Wundes bladed hussar. i get sidetracked from specifically eagle head pommel interests. I had a chat and examination about that hussar and Jeff Forgeng of the Higgins was thinkging possibly Scandinavian but definitely earlier than what time some had placed it in. Most likely (by his and other estimations) third quarter and perhaps even earlier.

There are some other swords that are MAsonic related that I never bothered to archive but coming to mind was a Swedish smallsword of the late 18th century quite bedecked with symbology. I would have to go searching for that if it had indeed been on one forum or another.

Thurkle was my first thought as well, as I had just been starting serious rework of everything eagle pommel. Mowbray's frontpiece example from Thurkle has that diamond. Ther are not terribly rare but are few and far in between. All seem to be from about that period of the last quarter 18th century.

Then there is this little nubbin on yet another spadroon ahd I could only imagine it was to position a knot. Were beading implemental to holding a knot in place? Enquiring minds and all that. Jean Binck sorted me out on another knot/scabbard tie, so this lil nubbin has had me wondering for a year or so (another I couldn't chase to my pen that time)

Cheers

Hotspur; I have the hussar pictures quite handy for that one

Jim McDougall

15th July 2009, 05:16 PM

Thanks so much guys, this thread just keeps getting better! and Jeff, the note on Thurkle and the note on his use of the diamond has been driving me mad :) ! You know there will be no sleep until I find it!

Interesting note Glen on the sweetheart design, and while the topic seems familiar, it must have been some time ago as it doesnt come readily to mind. I do know that over the years I did do a lot of research on the use of the heart shape in hilt and mounts motif. Naturally little conclusive resulted, although it did lead to some interesting communications with some most interesting discussions.
It does seem that the heart shape does occur a great deal in Scottish baskethilts in the piercings in the saltires.......perhaps this design in the hilt of a Scottish officers sabre ?

It was actually Charles Whitelaw whose suggestion concerning certain Jacobite symbolism was behind some motif in sword hilts that led me to pursuing the idea that there may be more to such things than simple aesthetics.

I am really curious now on the 'Wundes' hussar sabre, and the note that it may be Scandinavian. Whatever the case the hilt certainly does seem to correspond to those of third quarter 18th.

I would really like to know more on the Swedish smallsword with much symbolism bedecked. What was the nature of this, hilt elements or blade decoration or both? I hate to ask as I know you are in the throes of computer chaos, but my curiosity has the best of me as always.

I do know that I have seen articles on superstitious symbolism and beliefs pertaining to weapons during I believe 17th-18th c. which was published in "Varia" the Swedish journal of the Swedish Arms and Armour Society.
Whether pertinant or not it seemed worthy of note.

The note on fixtures emplaced for holding a knot, i.e. sword knot, is interesting, and though I am not sure these beaded applications would serve in any special manner for same would be the case, it is an interesting suggestion. I do know that a M1796 light cavalry sabre I had that was most certainly a yeomanry example with ivory grips and gilt brass hilt, had a rectangular fixture at the center of the crossguard. This was specifically to hold a sword knot, and while I thought its placement that close to the blade was unusual, I later found references that claimed this recalled a 'Polish' style sabre which had this feature.
I sure miss seeing Jean's posts, and sincerely hope we will hear from again soon.

Regarding the spadroon shown in the two sword post, I had completely overlooked the strange hippocanthus, and being most unfamiliar with French swords in general, had not recognized it. When I thought of Pegasus, I did wonder what in the world that tail was though !
As clearly these French swords were often done 'in the style of' , the swords l'anglaise would certainly have, in instances, duplicated the 'cigar band' around the grip, of the British styles, so my comment stating the feature was strictly British was missspoken, and thought of in general application.

Now, back to the search for the 'Thurkle diamond' ...and I 'Hope' I can find it!

All best regards,
Jim

Hotspur

16th July 2009, 01:02 AM

Hi Jim,

Here is a picture of a sword labeled as Swedish and about the 1780s. The odd paart about my coming across it today is that it wasb't the sword Iw as looking for, which may simply mean there are more associated 18th century clearly masonic decorated sword blades than we may think. It wa sa few years ago, so my mind may be misremembering as well but I'm pretty sure it was one as elaborate but with blue and gilt.

Regarding hearts on arms and armour, I have my own perspective on the talisman's of the Catholic church at large and could easily redraw it once again in yet another hearts thread. Heart, chalice, cup, tarot (you may see where I am going in terms and classes of sociology, wands, spades, coins). Again, I look at that from a much stronger continental influence than simly the pierced baskets used in both England and Scotland.

As to sword fixture and knots, it is one more egg in the big basket as so few are depicted in both art and research in descriptions. The salty parrot beak I pictured can have no other purpose I can think of for such a simple artifice of that hilt. It certainly has no aesthetic value I can see. To see knots quite wound around the guard bow does not seem unusual in pictures of later swords.

Ah well, off to look for the Swedish sword some more, unless it really was the one pictured. From the long SFI smallsword thread.

Cheers

Hotspur; there are a lot of swords in that long thread but this one did come up as Swedish and Masonic

Jeff D

16th July 2009, 01:46 AM

Hotspur

16th July 2009, 02:12 AM

Hi Jim,

Found it!!! Andrew Mowbray The American eagle-Pommel Sword 1988 Pg 58.

Hi Glen,

Interesting Specimen. Gustavus III issued a number of these swords (or very similar) as swords of honour after the war between Russia and Finland (1788-1790). It is rumoured that the masons assisted Gustavus mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag (parliament).

All the Best
jeff

Well, yes, of course Mowbray does picture an example by Thurkle (it is on the front of his cloth bound) but I cannot associate some of the other examples I have shown this thread and elsewhere, simply because one blade is clearly labeled as Wooley and others simply not too Thurkle.

Cheers

Hotspur; I had recently acquired the Mowbray(the younger)/Flayderman Medicus title and really do need to spend quality time with it.

Jim McDougall

16th July 2009, 02:22 AM

Hi Jeff and Glen,
You guys are truly masters of esoterica!!! and thank you so much Jeff for finding the reference! Another book I wish I had ! Andrew Mowbray was brilliant as a researcher and had a true passion for eagleheads.
On Thurkle, what was said about the diamond motif? etc.

Glen, thank you for the great pics of this fascinating colichmarde, and excellent example of what appears Masonic motif of the period. It would be interesting to discover more about what particular symbolism might have been favored by the lodges in various countries, as well as associated brotherhoods.

On the heart, it does seem there were discussions a while ago where this occurred in certain cases on Eastern European blade motif, I think it was Polish. I'll have to look for those notes.....we're really digging into some dusty old material here!!!

On another note, on this blade, the five point star seems to have the letter 'G' in the center. While it is often debated on the meaning, one suggestion is that is has to do with geometry, as it often appears in the center of the crossed compass and square of Masonic symbolism, geometry of course the mainstay of the craft. In discussions again of some time ago, the use of the star in Masonic symbolism was one topic.

Returning to the 'Thurkle diamond', in looking into the diamond shape as perhaps seen in symbolism, the compass and square form this shape which encloses the 'G'.

I know that these forays into occult and esoteric symbolism often are met with considerable skepticism and disregard by many, but I think that investigating the symbolism in weapons is a fascinating aspect not typically undertaken, so I really appreciate the participation here.
Thank you guys!!

All the best,
Jim

Hotspur

16th July 2009, 02:53 AM

My thoughts on hearts mentioned elsewhere in 2005.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5081

As the Holy Roman Empire lasted well into exporting themes from the continent, I do tend to look at a lot of stylistic issues as western expansion (ie England)

If it is improper for me to link other references on other sites where I participate, let me know. My deepest and heartfelt sorrows is that all forums are at times often less than symbiotic.

Cheers

Hotspur; Myself, being post stroke and still having some thought process issue, it is simply easier to offer what I have already posted (published).

Jeff D

16th July 2009, 03:01 AM

Hi Jim,

"Figure 1.A
Naval Officers' Sword ca. 1795 (Francis Thurkle)

One of the more commonly encountered Thurkle hiltings featuring a counter guard containing a pierced diamond- see detail."

Thats about it, Glen is correct he doesn't state that it is exclusive to Thurkle, just that it is common to them. Good eye on the square and compass motif. Actually look at the reflection off the ferrule, looks even closer :) .

Hi Glen,
Please go ahead and link, I can only think of one forum where this isn't allowed.

All the Best
Jeff

Lee

16th July 2009, 11:33 AM

If it is improper for me to link other references on other sites where I participate, let me know. My deepest and heartfelt sorrows is that all forums are at times often less than symbiotic.

There is no prohibition here about linking to relevant discussions elsewhere, indeed, if they enhance the discussion such links are encouraged. The one caveat, of course, would be links with a commercial purpose, so 'visit my web store to see one of these for sale' would not receive a favorable moderator's response. Links to dealer's 'sold' pages to illustrate examples remain permissible unless a member has been specifically advised otherwise by a member of the moderators team.

fernando

16th July 2009, 01:12 PM

... My deepest and heartfelt sorrows is that all forums are at times often less than symbiotic...

... I can only think of one forum where this isn't allowed...

... There is no prohibition here about linking to relevant discussions elsewhere, indeed, if they enhance the discussion such links are encouraged....

What a nice sequence; worthy of note :).

Fernando

Jim McDougall

16th July 2009, 03:18 PM

Very nicely said Gentlemen!!! and I am glad we all agree that our endeavors in learning together, sharing information and ideas far surpasses the pettiness too often seen in well known instances that are better left behind us.

Glen, please link away!!! and I really look forward to the detailed and well thought out material that you always share in your writing. I totally agree on trying to recapture material that has already been written in depth....its tough to try to recount accurately and with the same impact usually.

Onward!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Gonzalo G

16th July 2009, 10:20 PM

Hi Fearn and Gonzalo,

As already resumed in post # 3:
Spadroon: Obs. exc. Hist.1798 (ad. Genevan dialect espadron,= french espadon) A sword much lighter than a broadsword, and made both to cut and thrust.
(The Oxford Universal Dictionary)

Yes, Fearn, it is a fact that the augmentative suffix on, one or ão (portuguese), may also have a diminutive sense. This exception however sometimes is not correlative between latinic languages. Chaton, in portuguese gatão, is not often used, but does have the sense of large cat.

Ah, Gonzalo, pelota would very a popular term in spanish but is indeed a fench word (pelote), inherited from the provençal (pelota).

Pontoon, ponton, pontão is fact a bridge making element, but is also a little bridge, this being the aception mostly used in Portugal/portuguese.

Fernando

Nando, thank you for your comments. I agree with Jim about the origin of the word being to a certain point irrelevant. If jambiyya means "hip" it does not authorize to call "jambiyyas all daggers carried on the hip. Szabla is an historic weapon, with clear features, including a curved blade, no matter what the name meant originally. If it is a fact that the term is used in other sense and is accepted as such in english, it is all what I wanted to know. It only surprised me.

Fearn, I enjoy your comments, as always. :)

fernando

16th July 2009, 10:30 PM

Hi Gonzalo

... I agree with Jim about the origin of the word being to a certain point irrelevant...
It is not a question of relevancy; it was just because:

... I'd like to open some discussion on the term 'spadroon', the etymology...

Sorry :shrug: .

Saludos

Fernando.

Chris Evans

16th July 2009, 10:45 PM

Hi Folks,

A wonderful and most informative thread. Thank you all for your inputs.

Without being a linguist, I can fairly confidently say that languages rely to a very considerable degree on prevailing conventions. And these conventions impart the meaning to many words used. For example, `Cool' today can have a very different meaning than say a hundred years ago.

Often, in a given era, certain terms were used synonymously with other terms, which in a later era were sharply differentiated - The nomenclature of Gaucho knives immediately springs to mind, as do ancient fencing terms. It is the researcher's task to unravel what a particular term meant then and today. Failure to do so simply leads to confusion and incorrect interpretations.

Cheers
Chris

Gonzalo G

16th July 2009, 11:15 PM

Hi Gonzalo

It is not a question of relevancy; it was just because:

Sorry :shrug: .

Saludos

Fernando.

No, Fernando. In this point (spadroon) I gave my point of view. And Jim latter stated that the origin of the words were not very important for certain purposes. And then, agreeing with him and in another subject (szabla), I made the above comment. Please don´t be sorry, as there is no reason for. :eek: :D

Jim McDougall

17th July 2009, 01:15 AM

Hi Gonzalo, Fernando and Chris,
I have many times emphasized I am far from being a linguist, but that does not curtail my inate curiosity. You guys are all really good at this stuff, and I really appreciate all the insight into these terms.

After bringing up the topic, and being satisfied with the information presented, it became even more apparant that in studying the weapon itself, the term became somewhat secondary, though not discounting the importance of the observations.

I really just wanted to know if the term itself may have reflected the somewhat pretentious character of the weapon itself, focused on the term spadroon. The szabla thing is irrelevant to what I was seeking, as are reviews of other weaponry terms, despite interesting sidetracks.

Thanks so much guys :) every time you all talk, I learn!! Outstanding,

All the best,
Jim

Mark Cloke

17th July 2009, 07:33 AM

Hi Everyone,

Jim contacted me to tell me about this forum so I have just registered. I recognise a few names on this forum but to those who don't know me my name is Mark Cloke and my area of interest is the Birmingham sword cutlers of the 17th/18th/19th century. Currently researching the 'running fox' mark and 'Harvey'.

On the subject of spadroons and the diamond motif I think we can say that this was not limited to Thurkle. I have seem quite a few of these and they are marked to a wide array of London and provincial cutlers. I wouldn't rule out Thurke introducing it (someone had to be first) but in my opinion it could have been anyone. I also wouldn't rule out a single 'hilt maker' supplying them to a wide array of cutlers. Some of these manufacturers often used by the large cutlers such as scabbard makers, hilt makers, engravers etc. are lost to time as only the 'retailers' names are marked (unless in Silver and hallmarked). I have quite a few spadroons on my site (not sure if I should link to my own site) with and without the diamond.

I don't really have an opinion on the five ball discussion. The Masonic link does sound interesting and they were certainly very active during this period. Now the seed is in my mind I will see what I can find out.

Mark.

fernando

17th July 2009, 01:35 PM

Welcome aboard, Mark :) .
Fernando

Jeff D

17th July 2009, 03:49 PM

I have quite a few spadroons on my site (not sure if I should link to my own site)

Don't worry I already did. You have done a lot of work on it and is a great resource. :) . Welcome aboard!

Jeff

fernando

17th July 2009, 03:55 PM

Hi Mark
Can't you include the link to your site in your profile?
Fernando

Jim McDougall

17th July 2009, 04:37 PM

Hi Mark,
Its fantastic to see you here!! Welcome, and thank you for coming aboard.

Please do link to your site, which for the information of those here, is an outstanding resource which reflects the in depth research and detail that is characteristic of Mark's work. His article on the Gill family swordsmiths, which is presented by the Royal Armouries, is an excellent and comprehensive study which holds fascinating information on these important makers.

Mark, thank you for the insight regarding the diamond shape in hilt motif on these spadroons, and it seems that there is little to support any particular symbolism or assign to to a certain maker at this point. The network of hilt makers supplying various cutlers does make it difficult to designate such a design to a single one, and it seems that the diamond theme perhaps may simply be a popular geometric of the period.

The Masonic theory on the five ball hilt is one that I have been thinking on for quite some time, and I reopened the case here for discussion knowing that the core of knowledge here would provide just the venue to look more deeply into the possibilities. Your joining us here is a profound asset, thank you so much, and again welcome!!!

All very best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall

19th July 2009, 01:57 PM

Looking further into the choice of the word 'spadroon' and perhaps my query on it should have been directed more toward its semantics than etymology, I found some interesting notes in Egerton Castle's book "Schools and Masters of Fence" (p.207). These would seem to somewhat support my thoughts toward the term being more of a pretentious application used with reference to gentlemans fencing weapons and techniques of the times. Coupled with neoclassic allusion and the cultured elegance obsessions of the gentry, the term seems to have been more of a colloquial term in the sense of a fad of this period referring to cut and thrust.

Castle notes on p.207, "...the Italians and Germans had, it is true, a cutting play of thier own, and from them we took our so-called 'spadroon' or cut and thrust play, but it was practiced with weapons extremely light in comparison with our English backsword".

On p.243, Castle notes further, "...a cutting sword of still narrower dimensions, and with a much simpler guard approximating that of the smallsword was called 'spadroon' in England; it was in fact similar to the German cut and thrust rapier of the 18th century, which has been called spadone or spadrone since the disuse of the regular two handed swords, in the same way as the claymore retained the old name of a very different weapon".
* the reference to claymore of course meaning basket hilt, while the actual claymore was the Scottish two hand great sword.

"...the German spadroon was a regular double edged sword, but any light back or shearing sword was so called in English.

Best regards,
Jim

Hotspur

20th July 2009, 07:00 AM

Bingo ;)

Hotspur

22nd July 2009, 02:20 AM

Jim McDougall

22nd July 2009, 04:15 AM

Well duh. I do live under a rock in looking at the past. Some quite interesting beading from the past.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13784

Cheers

Hotspur; I wonder if the Switzzlers and Germane-ish types were masonic

sarcasm, please excuse a senile old man

Aw Glen, ya rascal!!! :)
Very good observation, and you're right, they're beads of sorts :)
Great to see Eljays work, he's always been brilliant at working on swords, from when we collected British patterns in California together about thirty some years ago. I truly learned a lot from him and his knowledge of European swords, which gives his work the elegance that is well known.

Nice one Glen....and uh, senile is not you... you're too sharp !(sword pun) :)

All the best,
Jim

Dmitry

3rd September 2010, 04:00 AM

Hi Jim and Glen,

Michel Petard in Des Sabres et Des Epees States that the "5-ball" style was taken from the English in 1795.

All the Best.

Jeff, would it be troublesome to look up the number 161 C sword in the picture you posted? I have a sword with the exact decoration on the guard - a hippocampus.

Thanks!

Jeff D

4th September 2010, 06:24 PM

Jeff, would it be troublesome to look up the number 161 C sword in the picture you posted? I have a sword with the exact decoration on the guard - a hippocampus.

Thanks!

Hi Dmitry,

It simply states that this is the "seahorse version of the naval officers sword". I will include a scan of the caption (sorry about the poor quality).

All the best
Jeff

Dmitry

4th September 2010, 07:14 PM

Hi Dmitry,

It simply states that this is the "seahorse version of the naval officers sword". I will include a scan of the caption (sorry about the poor quality).

All the best
Jeff

Jeff, thank you very much! This confirms that my sword was a naval officer's weapon.

Jeff D

4th September 2010, 07:19 PM

Jeff, thank you very much! This confirms that my sword was a naval officer's weapon.

Very nice!

Jeff

M ELEY

5th September 2010, 04:21 AM

Jeff D

5th September 2010, 05:29 AM

Yes,green with envy,Dmitry!! Very nice sword...

Jeff, you show a naval reference. It wouldn't happen to be 'LeSabre D' abortage' by M Petard, would it? I was wondering if anyone can recommend this book? If it's not Petard's, could you name this reference? Thanks!
Mark

Hi Mark,

I think I listed it on the original scan which Dmitry was inquiring about. It is Michel Petard's Des Sabres et Des Epees Tome I .

All the Best
Jeff

M ELEY

5th September 2010, 07:04 AM

Thank you, Jeff. Sorry I missed the original reference. I'll have to keep an eye out for a copy of Petard's volume.

Hotspur

6th September 2010, 02:21 AM

I know that sword Dmitry :) Another possible small naval from Shiloh came my way this spring and I had adopted it. This one is really quite an oddball and maybe harder to place in time than the hippocampus counterguard. I had seen another twin to that one somewhere and I am forgetting where.

Cheers

GC

Alan62

7th September 2010, 03:44 AM

Dmitry

8th September 2010, 04:08 AM

Another possible small naval from Shiloh came my way this spring and I had adopted it. This one is really quite an oddball and maybe harder to place in time than the hippocampus counterguard. I had seen another twin to that one somewhere and I am forgetting where.

Cheers

GC

Hello, Glen.
This is a nice sword in French style. It's not naval, but an army officer's, perhaps etat-major.

M ELEY

8th September 2010, 06:33 AM

Beautiful sword, Glen! As Dmitry pointed out, it's probably French and with no absolute naval provenance, there's no way of proof. However, In Annis book on sea swords, he does say that hangers (which were very popular with naval personnel) that had nautical motiffs might very well have seen service at sea. Things such as shell guards, sea horses, anchors, Poseidon, ocean waves, etc, that wouldn't normally appeal to a hunter (who would prefer a more decorated piece with wild boar, splay of weapons, hunting dogs, powderhorn decoration, etc, etc. In 'Swords for Sea Sercive', May says that some of these might have also appealed to Marine officers, if not naval personnel. Of course, your sword isn't a hanger, but one never knows where it might have served.

Hotspur

8th September 2010, 06:05 PM

Thanks Dmitry,

This one was in really rough condition, with the blade covered with a deep layer of crusty rust. The wear side ha been ground down as if mounted on a display and still retains some of the screws in the hilt. This had been priced accordingly for my budget and was of interest for exactly threads such as this one.

Cheers

GC

Jim McDougall

9th September 2010, 04:32 AM

Hi Jim,,
The sword that you used in the your first post is still hanging in my collection.
I have another spadroon that I am thinking about buying yet I am having a bit of trouble identifying the model,,I have determined it to be made by Wooley,,due to a vague mark near the ricasso
I will attach some very poor pics of the hilt and perhaps one of you guys will recognize it.
One of the photos in the post above mine has a very similuar hilt yet has a large curved blade. Mine has a straight sharp blade like the 5 ball hilt in the picture you used in the original post.
I apologize for the quality of the photos,I had to take with a cell phone and will post better ones if I decide to make the purchase.
Thanks for any input
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a173/Alan62/Luger/Photo2706.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a173/Alan62/Luger/Photo2709.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a173/Alan62/Luger/Photo2712.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a173/Alan62/Luger/Photo2713.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a173/Alan62/Luger/Photo2714.jpg

Hi Alan,
That sword is indeed a beauty!!! and this one is nice also, especially marked to Wooley. This is an infantry officers spadroon in my opinion, and Wooley seems to have greatly favored French fashion c.1790s and early 19th century. The fluted ebony grip is similar to grips I have seen on his sabres with brass stirrup hilts, one marked Wooley & Deakin (1801-1803). The hilt style on this corresponds to those of c.1780s and I have seen these in silver with the raised perpandicular crossguard design, it seems 1790s to about 1810. This is what I recollect offhand, but personally I think they're very attractive sabres, and in line with the five ball hilt style.

All best regards,
Jim