twohandsword/twohander/bidenhander/zweihander

[cornelistromp]

maybe we can get this fascinated weapon structured.
(in my house the twohanders are still a chaos, see pic.)

Landsknecht two hander? 16thC fighting twohanders ? Stantler twohander ?
when did the two hander became processional ? did they also fight with processional two handers? different flamberge blade types ?
the beautiful Braunschweiger twohander? fishtailpommels? difference in swordstyles between countries

looking forward to the reactions?

best regards

[Paul Macdonald]

That`s one beautiful and rare collection you have there!

Great to see, and I would love to see some even closer details on some of these.

Two handed swords have been used as procession swords for as long as they have been around. For official ceremony or parade, the two handed sword is a clear and mighty symbol of power, status and justice.

There is however a difference between two handed swords made exclusively for ceremony and those made first for practical use that may also have been used for ceremony.

From your photograph, all the swords shown there appear to be practical two handers, all crafted for practical martial use (and there`s a couple there that I bet fly nicely ;) )
It is possible that these have been used as processional swords at some stage in their life, but without contextual provenance, is impossible to prove.

Processional swords that are designed for ceremonial use firstly are evident by their form, dimensions or construction, which may all be outwith practical considerations and requirements.

Ceremonial Form -

The State Sword of Scotland is a good example of a sword hilt designed primarily for ceremonial use.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/Macdonaldacademy/Macdonald%20Armouries/honors-of-scotland.jpg

The blade is in fact a nicely forged and crafted piece that could be put to practical use if required, but the hilt is clearly ceremonial in nature.
All hilt elements are elaborately designed and covered in gilt work. The quillions are nicely formed, yet too thin for practical design. The grip is also metal and of a form not designed with comfort and effective grip in mind. The pommel is also overly large and hollow, which lends a greater canvas for the craftsman to present his skills, but is not so practical for any fighting sword.

Ceremonial Dimensions -

To create the impression of an ultimate symbol of power and status, some swords were created primarily for ceremonial impression.
The two handed sword presently on display at the Royal Museum of Scotland at Chambers Street, Edinburgh, is a fitting example of this (centre of image below).

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/Macdonaldacademy/Macdonald%20Armouries/Royalmuseumswords.jpg

This is a sword crafted in traditional form, but excessive dimensions.
Note the Highland two hander and Lowland two hander on each side. The Highland sword has a blade length of approx. 40", which by scale give the ceremonial sword an overall length well in excess of 80"!
This is one huge piece, with the blade as broad as your hand.
The sword is well made, with a nice blade in fact, but far too large for any practical use.

Ceremonial Construction -

In the Great Hall of Edinburgh Castle there are many swords. A great many original basket hilts and early sabres, one questionable Highland two hander, and two large pieces that at first glance appear to be nicely made German zweihanders.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/Macdonaldacademy/Macdonald%20Armouries/Castletwohanders.jpg

The swords are of traditional form and dimensions, but closer inspection reveals their true nature.

The blades are excessively thick at the forte and down the length of the blade, indicating a blade weight outwith practical considerations. The grip and pommel are also carved from the same piece of wood. Aye, you heard it right, wooden pommels!
This confirms that these swords are created firstly to look the part, most likely for ceremonial use.

Another possibility exists, that these swords may have been created simply to look the part for a castle or stately home great hall in the C19th, given the gothic revival at this time. Only a closer study to period of manufacture could suggest further or otherwise.

With regard to ceremonial two handers however, I hope that the above observations might be helpful in your research.

All the best,

Macdonald

[cornelistromp]

Hi Paul,

I just noticed your very valuable information and pictures, especially the two handers in the great hall of Edinburgh's castle are very interesting.

thanks a lot :)

regards from Holland

[cornelistromp]

.

[cornelistromp]

.

[cornelistromp]

.

[Marc]

Just because there's a piece I know that looks similar to one of those... What's the bibliographical reference for this picture? Thanks in advance :)

[cornelistromp]

Just because there's a piece I know that looks similar to one of those... What's the bibliographical reference for this picture? Thanks in advance :)
HI Marc,

that must be a nice piece then ;)

Inventar der Waffensammlung des Bernischen Historischen Museums in Bern
by DR. Rudolf Wegeli
1929
II Schwerter und Dolche (swords and daggers)

I think it will be very hard (read impossible) to find this book.
if you give me the nr I will mail you the description. (in German, I can translate for you if you want)

Regards from Amsterdam

[fernando]

The one in the Oporto Military Museum.

.

[Marc]

HI Marc,

that must be a nice piece then ;)

Inventar der Waffensammlung des Bernischen Historischen Museums in Bern
by DR. Rudolf Wegeli
1929
II Schwerter und Dolche (swords and daggers)

I think it will be very hard (read impossible) to find this book.
if you give me the nr I will mail you the description. (in German, I can translate for you if you want)

Regards from AmsterdamWell, I've seen worse... :)

Thank you, I really appreciate your kindness. The item in question is number 177. A translation from German would also indeed be extremely helpful, if it's not much of a nuisance...
Thank you very much again,
Marc

[cornelistromp]

sword, early 16thC
in the wide flat blade with roof shaped edge and smaller till the middle reaching fullers are 4 marks in messing. 1 and 1/2 hander straight round thin guards
with fig shaped terminals, 2 flat ring guards with pierced plates, grip with
robe wired and covered with punched leather clothing, fig shaped pommel with round tang knob.

best regards

[Matchlock]

Enjoy.

Michael

[cornelistromp]

Enjoy.

Michael

Hi Michael,

HermannH 19MAI 2001 LOS 64

I missed this beautiful one. :(

Best regards

[Matchlock]

Brilliant, man!

Well, nobody can get everything ... :shrug: :rolleyes:

m

[Marc]

sword, early 16thC
in the wide flat blade with roof shaped edge and smaller till the middle reaching fullers are 4 marks in messing. 1 and 1/2 hander straight round thin guards
with fig shaped terminals, 2 flat ring guards with pierced plates, grip with
robe wired and covered with punched leather clothing, fig shaped pommel with round tang knob.

best regardsThank you very much, that's going to be very helpful. :)

[cornelistromp]

.

[Gonzalo G]

Very good thread, Cornelis, and thank you all for this valuable visual material.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Zwielicht]

Is there any existing classification of the flamberge blades?

As I understood, on sight all of them fall in two different types, and the difference between them lies in the method of making the waves - first type is a "snake-like" (when the the whole body of the blade was made waved, which is clearly shown at the example from the first post), and the second is "saw-like" (when the body of the blade was of it's usual shape with the saw-like edge, like those shown at the book and the perfect one from the last post by cornelistromp).

[cornelistromp]

the largest medieval sword that I am aware of.
even greater then the huge sword in the Tower of London.
allover length 270cm, blade 205cm x 10cm ,cross 66cm
, pommel 13cm. topkapi Museum Istanbul.

[cornelistromp]

great medieval swords in tower of London.

[Matchlock]

Oh yes, Jasper,

They are HUGE, 7 ft. long I think.
Must have been bearing or processional swords.

Best,
m

[fernando]

Pardon my ignorance, Gentlemen :o .
Why do you/we call these 'things' swords and not (decorative, symbolic,ritual ... you name it)) objects with the shape/form of swords ?
... For the sake of the term meaning :shrug: .
... As surely you will not go out and do any 'swording' with them :confused: .

[cornelistromp]

Pardon my ignorance, Gentlemen :o .
Why do you/we call these 'things' swords and not (decorative, symbolic,ritual ... you name it)) objects with the shape/form of swords ?
... For the sake of the term meaning :shrug: .
... As surely you will not go out and do any 'swording' with them :confused: .

we call them swords because that is what it is.
not suitable for a man to man combat, but it'll be very impressive and intimidating.
about the exact function of those swords the learned gentlemen still disagree.

best,

[Matchlock]

Please also check out the valuable contributions in

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15290


m

[thinreadline]

This is my two hander for what its worth. It's approx 150 cm long , the blade is in very poor condition so as the hilt is very good I assume that the two got togther at a later date . The blade is remarkably flexible and exhibits none of the stiffness that I associate with these large swords .

[fernando]

Hi Richmond,
Can we have a close(r) picture of the hilt.
... If you don't mind, of course :o

[thinreadline]

Hi Richmond,
Can we have a close(r) picture of the hilt.
... If you don't mind, of course :o
Not at all , you are welcome ...

[Matchlock]

Hi Richmond,


The ornamental style of the carvings on the hilt seems to point towars ca. 1560, based on the acanthus leaves, although the profuse piercings would suggest somewhat earlier stylistic aesthetics of ca. 1530.

The irregular corrosion of the blade reminds me of swords salvaged from tombs, showing heavy rust only in places that were in close contact with the body.

As to the flexibility of the blade I can tell by experience that blades of two-handed swords are far from being stiff; they are highly flexible instead.


Best,
m

[cornelistromp]

the flexible blade seems very good, I see this more often on two handers. The hilt is beautiful but it seems to me 19thC, although Italians also have created this kind of artwork in the 16th century.

best,

[fernando]

... The hilt is beautiful but it seems to me 19thC ...
I am not even a novice but, that was my fear, when i asked Richmond for close ups.
... But again, my opinion is worthless :o .

[thinreadline]

Hi Richmond,


The ornamental style of the carvings on the hilt seems to point towars ca. 1560, based on the acanthus leaves, although the profuse piercings would suggest somewhat earlier stylistic aesthetics of ca. 1530.

The irregular corrosion of the blade reminds me of swords salvaged from tombs, showing heavy rust only in places that were in close contact with the body.

As to the flexibility of the blade I can tell by experience that blades of two-handed swords are far from being stiff; they are highly flexible instead.


Best,
m
That is very inteersting if a little eerie !

[thinreadline]

the flexible blade seems very good, I see this more often on two handers. The hilt is beautiful but it seems to me 19thC, although Italians also have created this kind of artwork in the 16th century.

best,

Thank you .... that is a possibility of course ... there seems a concensus about the flexibility of these blades which is comforting !

[thinreadline]

I am not even a novice but, that was my fear, when i asked Richmond for close ups.
... But again, my opinion is worthless :o .

Fernando .... your modesty is very becoming , but what I crave is your opinion clearly stated !
Thank you
Richmond

[Matchlock]

the flexible blade seems very good, I see this more often on two handers. The hilt is beautiful but it seems to me 19thC, although Italians also have created this kind of artwork in the 16th century.

best,


Oh yeah, Jasper,

A 19th c. guess concerning the hilt was my first thought as the decorative edges of the quillons seem so crisp - but I did not feel sure as I did not handle it and neither intended to arise negative feelings ...
Thus I confined to pointing out the stylistic criteria.

Best,
m