Sawfish sword

[Tim Simmons]

I went to town today and came home with this. It was an offer I could not refuse. We were shown one some time ago. I have always thought these came from Australasian islands like those in the Torres Staits and other south seas islands. Has anybody got better information. Oal 71cm. Tim

[Andrew]

Neat thing you've got there, Tim. :)

Here's a link to an SFI thread about one of these. It was, ostensibly, started as an excercise in "Critical Thinking". Despite that, some useful information was disseminated. :D

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52963

[Tim Simmons]

Quite interesting, a little windy and inconclusive, mine does not have the tourist handle. In combat against people dressed in very little this would be a quite terrible weapon. Tim

[Andrew]

... a little windy and inconclusive...


No question. :D

Cheers,
A

[fearn]

Hi Andrew

I think the basic point is that sawfish, like swordfish, occur all over the world. Actually, that's not quite true--they used to occur all over the world, especially in the tropics (thanks to overfishing and pollution). I'd guess that quite a few people have seen the weapon possibilities in a sawfish bill, given the number of examples floating around.

So far as this specimen goes, the fish was a large one, the handle looks to be carved from part of the bill, and it could have been made almost anywhere. I don't think it's "authentic indigenous" Torres Islander material, simply because they're halfway between the Australian Aborigines and the southern shore Papuans, and this doesn't look nearly that primitive. The item could easily have been manufactured in the Torres Strait area, but if so, it's probably of relatively recent provenance.

One other thing: some sawfish species are endangered, although I'm too lazy at the moment to do the searching to find out which are covered. Given that this piece is hard to age or place, you might want to be a little careful about moving it between countries...

That's my 0.02 cents,

F

[Tim Simmons]

These pictures of Torres Strait weapons come from 'The Torres Strait Collections of A.C.Haddon' David Moore, British Museum Publications 1984.
These items were collected 1898-9, they do not strike me as more primitive than weapons from anywhere else in the surrounding areas. In saying the Torres Straits and other south seas atolls, I think you would have to include some of Papua and indeed the coast of Australia. As with most artifacts from these areas, objects which date from before the late 1890s would be extremely rare. Tim

[B.I]

hi tim,
have you been to the pitt rivers in oxford. i must admit i get caught up in one section everytime i go, but there is a wealth of oceanic and african items. i think clues may be found there as the collection was formed around 1900 and he kept relatively good records. there is also a large collection of early photos, all of an ethnic direction.
a nagging thought reminds me it may be shut for a while but worth pursuing.

[Tim Simmons]

Hi B.I. I have been to the Pittrivers Museum it must have been about a decade ago. One collection I have not yet seen is the Fitzwilliam at Cambridge. The first world war and its end would have brought more europeans into the areas that were German south pacific territories in particulary the southern parts of Papua. Tim

[fearn]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the pics! You're quite right about the lack of "primitiveness" in the Torres Islands. What I was trying to get at (and failing) is that the shape of the grip on your sawfish bill (with a bulging handle and a pommel) doesn't look Oceanic. While there is one club (at the bottom) that has a pommel, the particular handle shape on the sawfish blade looks western to me. My personal guess is that someone made a sword out of a sawfish bill basically for fun. It could easily have come from the Torres Strait, and it could just as easily have been made by an Aussie as a native.

Basically, to me it's a neat blade, whatever its origin. Absent some more information on decoration, tool marks, or the species of sawfish, all I can say is that it's fairly old. I don't think we've got enough information to assign an origin to it at the moment.

Fearn

[Tim Simmons]

Hi Fearn, that Aussie must have been very busy, I bought this from a collection of weapons. Of this type of weapon this example was the best of three the others having damage, one with the handle broken off the other too may damaged teeth. I shall post picture of Papuan 'sword clubs' later this evening. They would seem to suggest what you consider as a european grip is some what universal in its pracitcality. Tim

[fearn]

Hi Tim,

What you suggest is entirely possible. While I don't recommend damaging collections, you might want to find out how easy it is to carve a sawfish bill. It's not steel, and it might be possible to make carve such a sword in an afternoon, given decent tools. That's why tool marks would be useful.

So far as ID'ing this sawfish species, it turns out that sawfish taxonomy is kind of messed up. It looks like your specimen is not a bigtooth or smalltooth sawfish (see this link to a Florida museum (http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Gallery/Descript/LTSawfish/LTSawfish.html)). If true, this means that your sawfish wasn't caught in the Atlantic. There's a grad student at Iowa State (http://www.public.iastate.edu/~vicente/index.html) who is currently reworking sawfish taxonomy. He might be able to give you some pointers on how to identify the sawfish that donated its bill here.

In any case, I'm looking forward to seeing the other pieces.

Fearn

[Tim Simmons]

Hi Fearn, I should be hard at work but something is disstrating me :confused: The possiblity of an Atlantic African origin is possible, the collection was largely 19th cent west African and Congo pieces with a few pieces from Indonesia and a few Papuan shields. I have been looking very closely at the carving of the handle with a loop and do not forget carving is my work. I can see no signs that this is one of an afternoons production. There are no saw or file marks which to me suggest it was cut with small hand tools the few marks do not give a good clue as to what type of tool was used. The handle has been painted with a black substance rather like tar. I would have thought it rather hard work in a dug out, to catch enougth big ones to carve a pile of these. I would be quite pleased to find out if these are from the coastal areas of say Gabon or the Congo. Clubs later work is breathing down my neck. Tim

[fearn]

Hi Tim,

That certainly helps. I'm glad you can provide an expert opinion on the tools that made that sawfish sword.

Given that my understanding of sawfish biology comes almost entirely from the web, I believe that the Bigtooth and Smalltooth sawfishes are the only species in the tropical Atlantic, both in the Carribean, the South American coast, and the African coast (they're coastal animals apparently).

Basically, your sword looks like it has too many teeth to be a smalltooth sawfish. That means that it didn't come from the Carribean or from west Africa.

There are 3-6 other sawfish in the world, presumably in the Indian and Pacific oceans. If the saw didn't come from one of the Atlantic species, it came from one of the Indopacific ones.

Personally, I'd recommend emailing that grad student. Speaking as a former biology grad student, most of us are quite happy when someone takes an interest in our particular branch of esoteric knowledge. He might be able to tell you what species of sawfish that came from, and where that species lives.

Fearn

[Rick]

Always trying to help via Google . :D

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Sciences/Zoology/EndangeredSpecies/EndangeredAnimals/SawfishCITES/SawfishCITES.htm

[fearn]

Thanks Rick. That's the point about CITES. As for seven species... here is some of the grad student's (Vicente Faria) work that he's presenting at a conference this year. Here's the abstract (note the title):

FARIA, VICENTE V.; MCDAVITT, MATTHEW T.

Trying again two centuries later: an essay on the various species of sawfish
(Chondrichthyes, Pristiformes)

The sawfishes, family Pristidae, is comprised of seven nominal species: Anoxypristis cuspidata, Pristis pectinata, P. zijsron, P. clavata, P. perotteti, P. microdon and P. pristis. However, due to considerable taxonomic confusion this number may in fact vary between four and ten. Among the reasons for this taxonomic disarray is that many of the original species descriptions were extremely abbreviated, and in some cases not even based on specimens, or based only on isolated anatomical parts; only two of the six type specimens are available for examination today; poor representation of specimens in collections, which mostly consist of dried rostra or very young specimens; and scarcity of these animals in their natural habitat due to overfishing. In the present study we reviewed sawfish taxonomy based on evidence from (1) morphological (external morphometric and meristic characters) and molecular data (DNA sequence from one mitochondrial gene, NADH-2) of representative specimens, (2) museum records and historical specimens, (3) distributional information derived from archaeological remains and anthropological artifacts and (4) review of the primary literature. Inferences based on our results are discussed in the context of sawfish diversity, geographical distribution and historical taxonomy.

Basically, he's saying that the distinctions between species are based on missing or degraded specimens, and he's trying to straighten the record out. This is normal work, even for CITES-listed species (most rare things have not been well studied). It's also why I'd suggest contacting Mr. Faria and getting an expert opinion on the source of the saw.

Fearn

[Tim Simmons]

I shall contact this man. This piece is not new, with close inspection you can see that it is at least from the turn of the 19-20th cent. Rick, that info was great, this could develope nicely either, way I am glad I got it, I could not knock the price down enough on the first piece I liked. Clubs later. Tim

[Rick]

Gotta love Google ! :D

Until we get the species straightened out . I would see no reason why this bill could not have come from Central America .

[fearn]

Hi Rick,

Welllll.....

According to the current biology, there are two species in the Atlantic, the big-tooth and small-toothed sawfishes. The big-tooth has fewer and larger teeth, the small-toothed has smaller and more teeth. Thing is, Tim's specimen has more teeth than small-toothed sawfishes do.

Because of that, I'd suggest that it's neither the big-toothed nor the small-toothed species. If so, it didn't come from the Atlantic.

I do know from another book (Throwim Way Leg by Tim Flannery) that there is a sawfish species that allegedly lives only in one lake in Irian Jaya. Now, I do not think that this is the source of the Tim's sawbill, but I do suspect that this lake species might be one of the questionable ones, based on what I know about biology. My guess is that the questionable species (between 2 and 6 of them) probably occur in the Indopacific, especially around Indonesia, PNG and Australia.

Bottom line: my guess is that the Tim's blade came from the Indo Pacific. Which species it came from is the interesting question. Hopefully, Tim's got a complete enough Bill that the sawfish expert can identify it from a photo.

Fearn

[Rick]

Hi Fearn , you have a point :D there (or many) . ;)

http://hometown.aol.com/nokogiri/page10.html

I loved Throwim Way Leg ; a great read . :)
Some years since I read it ; it means take a journey IIRC , no ?

[Tim Simmons]

Fearn, this picture of a club from the Massim people of SE Papua 19-20th cent is not the picture I had in mind but it will do. Quite a nice handle, not primitive at all. I will post the other when I find it. Sometimes you look so hard you can not see a thing. Email and pictures sent to 'student' with a bit of luck he might help. It is possible that this would not actually be used for combat. Thanks for all your comments. Tim

[Tim Simmons]

I did not expect it quite so quickly, this is what 'student' had to say.

From what we currently know and accept, the species you have is 'ANOXYPRISTIS CUSPIDATA'
The distribution of this species ranges from North Indian to West Pacific, from China Sea to Northern Australia.

I do not think it is from South America, so the Torres Straits and Papuan areas look to be the most likely place of origin when added to the other information found today. I would just like to say thanks for all your help even though we have gone full circle it was most enjoyable, shame about my work :rolleyes: Tim

[fearn]

Yep, that was fun. Where did you get that great image of the Massim club?

The good news is now you have an ID from an authority and a provenance of sorts--at least for the raw material. Personally, I still think a western sailor carved it, but so long as we're cheerful about agreeing to disagree, who cares?

The other news is that Anoxypristis cuspidata is listed as "endangered" in the IUCN Red Book (http://www.redlist.org/search/details.php?species=39389) , so you might have import/export problems if you try to move it internationally.

Fearn

[Tim Simmons]

Hi Fearn,
The picture comes from a relitively inexpensive book "Oceanic Art" Anthony JP Meyer, Konemann. I am not fighting for the last word but if we put the boot on the other foot, how about you showing me that it is carved by a salior, at a time when objects finer than this could be bought or taken for very little. Tim

[VANDOO]

THE FIRST SWORD PICTURED APPEARS TO HAVE THE HANDLE SAWED OUT OF THE BASE OF THE ROSTRUM WHICH IS PROBABLY MORE LIKE ONES MADE IN PRIMATIVE SOCIETYS. THE ONES WITH WOOD HANDLES AND GAURDS ECT. ARE MOST LIKELY NAUTICAL MADE OR COPYED FROM EUROPEAN WEAPONS BY NATIVES. THERE WAS ANOTHER OLD THREAD THAT COVERED WEAPONS WITH TEETH OR BILLS FROM VARIOUS REGIONS OF THE WORLD. I THINK IT STARTED WITH THE HAWAIIAN LEI O MANO AND HAD QUITE A FEW PICTURES.
LOGICALLY LARGE BILLFISH OR SAWFISH ROSTRUMS WOULD HAVE BEEN UNUSUAL AND FEARSOME AND WOULD HAVE BEEN EASILY CONVERTED TO WEAPONS OR CEREMONIAL OBJECTS IN PRIMATIVE CULTURES SO WERE PROBABLY USED WHERE AVAILABLE.
MANY OF THE EXAMPLES I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN OVER THE YEARS APPEAR TO BE THE WORK OF SAILORS DURING THE TIME OF SAILING SHIPS. THEY HAD LOTS OF TIME AND TRAVELED TO MANY PORTS AND LIKED TO BRING BACK ODD THINGS FROM THEIR VOYAGES AND HAD PLENTY OF TIME TO MAKE MANY INTERESTING CRAFTS. I HAVE SOME OLD BROADBILL SWORDFISH BILLS THAT I PLAN ON FIXING UP ONE OF THESE DAYS, THEY ARE QUITE HARD SO WORKING THEM UP WILL BE SLOW EXCEPT FOR WHAT CAN BE DONE WITH A SAW.

THE STUDENT MENTIONED ARCHELOGICAL FINDS THAT WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO START LOOKING FOR EVIDENCE OF PREHISTORIC USE. SOME OTHER CLUB TYPES COULD ALSO HAVE BEEN PATTERENED AFTER THE SAWFISH BILL. THE OCEANIC ONES USING SHARK TEETH AND THE ONES IN SOUTH AMERICA USING OBSIDIAN BLADES COME TO MIND.

[Tim Simmons]

I would just like to question the rather sweeping asumption that these and in saying so, many weapons made from animal parts or bone should be labelled 'sailor made or tourist trinket'. Many peoples where metal , the knowledege and equipment to make metal weapons is limited, the use of natural materials is common. All those cassowary bone knives, that shell axe post earlier in this thread and many more can all too easily be dismissed by saying 'sailor made' and all the time this statement is unsubstantiated. This is handy when you either do not Know much about or can not prove much about the material in question. The collecting world has been here before with artifacts from other lands, Africa comes to mind, also the bird knife post I made some years ago. All I know is that this came from a reputable source. Tim

[fearn]

Hi Tim,

I would agree that it was made for use (as opposed to the sailor theory), if you could demonstrate that it's more than 130 years old. That's when the Torres Islands were annexed to Brittain (Torres Island History Link (http://cwpp.slq.qld.gov.au/torresstrait/history/history.htm)). I'd also be happier if there were use marks along the blade, which I don't see in the photos. As sawfishes reportedly don't regrow lost or damaged teeth, I doubt that the condition of the teeth is evidence for human use.

In PNG, most of the bone tools were phased out in the 1950s in the highlands. Along the coast, it happened much earlier. Similarly, bone and wood weapons are still used in the remotest parts of Amazonia and the Andaman Islands, but the sad fact is that advanced cultures have done a pretty good job of penetrating the rest of the globe.

While the Torres Islands weren't much visited before the 1860's, they lie directly on the major sea route between India and Australia. Assuming that's where this sword came from, they aren't in a good location to retain traditional weaponry such as you're assuming this sword is.

On the other hand, I have yet to find a sailor's carved sawfish bill, at least on the web. I'm not too surprised, given that Google is not showing this conversation when I search "sawfish sword." I'm also bugged by the "tar" on the pommel. If that is truly tar, I'd suggest that strengthens the case for it being sailor-made. The Torres strait islands don't have petroleum deposits...

F

[Tim Simmons]

Hi Fearn,
I do not know if it is tar as you speak of. If ? it is a type of tar then tar substances can be obtained from the burning of vegetable matter, this is done in the Congo and used in a similar fashion. One of our German members might be able to help as I believe the best collection of PNG artifacts is in Berlin. Your arguement to me still seems centered around your interpretation of a universal handle form as european. Tim

[fearn]

Hi Tim,

You're partially right, although we disagree on how universal the shape is. The other part is that I think that the bill is too young to have seen use as a weapon, and I don't see any evidence on the blade that it was used as a weapon.

F

[Tim Simmons]

Hi Fearn,
Not all weapons get used we all have old weapons with no real signs of combat. There is the possibility that this could be like the parade weapons of Africa particulary if the fish was a totem and function as a religous object. How may handles have same shape, crusader swords, many Indo/Persian swords "tulwars" and from Indonesia I think they are known as Batak swords. Form and function tend to operate on universal principles. Tim

[fearn]

Hi Tim,

I agree with you on form following function. The major reason I question the handle design is the swelled grip, not the crescent pommel. Just for comparison's sake, Tribalarts.com has a sawfish bill sword made by the Batak (I believe), and it has a straight handle with a wrist cord.

So far as parade items.... It might be possible, but it depends pretty critically on the age of the piece. Assuming once again that it came from the Torres Islands, their history is fairly interesting. They were colonized and missionized around 1860-1870, were finally given a bit more freedom around WWI, and staged a peaceful strike/rebellion in the late 1930's.

The problem is that both of us date this weapon to around the turn of the 20th century. It's pretty obviously old, but if it was made in the Torres Islands, it was at a time when they went to Church every Sunday and the kids went to mission school. If it was less than 50 or more than 130 years old, I'd be thinking more strongly that it was native made, especially as artwork as you suggest.

Nowdays, the Torres Islanders produce some neat artwork (admittedly, I'm partial to Oceanic art in general), and my impression is that this is a post-WWII phenomenon.

This all assumes that it came from the Torres Islands. If it came from the Massim (eastern tip of PNG and related islands, including the Trobriands), then you could make a stronger argument that it was native made, although I'd still disagree :)

F

[Tim Simmons]

Hi Fearn,
I did mention earlier that in saying Torres straits I suggested that the surrounding areas be included in the debate. I am more than happy to rule out the Straits proper . That leaves PNG and the many small islands around its coast which still suits me. Taking into account of how large PNG is and therefore it long coast line. I think you would have to be very sure of your facts to deny the crux of my arguement. Tim

[fearn]

Hi Tim,

Perhaps. Here's what we know:

1) the bill belongs to "[a] large sawfish [that] is distributed through much of the Indo-West Pacific region. It is, like all other Pristids, disproportionately subject to continued capture in the net gear widely employed throughout its range... It [lives] in shallow inshore coastal waters, estuaries and possibly the lower reaches of rivers. " (from the IUCN redbook page cited above). Checking another web page (http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Gallery/Descript/KTSawfish/KTSawfish.html) , this fish can occur from the Red Sea to southern Japan. It occurs in the Torres Strait, but we certainly can't exclude quite a few other locations.

2) both of us think that the blade is around 100 years old, although I really don't know how fast sawfish bills age.

3) It has a carved hilt that could be European, could be Massim, could be whatever. I'm arguing specifically on that swelled grip, which to my thinking is more common in European (esp German) knives than on Massim clubs (don't forget that the Germans and Dutch were the original colonizers of New Guinea).

4) It's undecorated, aside from the tar/plant sap/lacquer/whatever on the hilt, and it doesn't have a wrist cord.

5) What I've been able to find out about the history of the Torres Islands suggests that, if we've got the age right, it probably wasn't made for indigenous warfare or ritual, since neither were going on in the Torres Islands 100 years ago.

It's certainly fun to argue about, but we need more evidence to settle this one way or the other.

Fearn

[Tim Simmons]

I am happy to leave it at that. My main concern was the rather catch all know nothing really tag of " sailor made " one of the reasons ethnographic items in the past were largely considered junk and untill quite recently very cheap is the lack of real knowledge of the items and cultural context. I can not wait untill I find the next piece to do it again. I might get some work done now. :D Thanks Fearn , Tim

[VANDOO]

I WOULD NOT SAY THAT A PERSON WHO HAS SEEN ACTUAL SWORDS MADE FROM SWORDFISH BILLS THAT WERE PROVENANCED IN MUSEUM COLLECTIONS SOME HAVING SCRIMSHAW WORK ON THEM IS A KNOW NOTHING. I BELEAVE THERE WERE NATIVE MADE AND SAILOR MADE AND SEE NO PROBLEM THERE AND WOULD CERTIANLY NOT SAY SOMEONE WAS A KNOW NOTHING IF HE HELD ONE VIEW OR THE OTHER THIS A DISCUSSION OF ALL POSSIBILITYS NOT A DEBATE WHERE SOMEONE MUST LOSE.
THE ABORIGINALS USE A TYPE OF TREE GUM ON THE ENDS OF THEIR KNIVES AND SPEAR THROWERS OTHER SIMULAR GUMS ARE USED IN PNG AND ELSWHERE BY PRIMATIVE SOCIETYS. A HANDLE MADE FROM THE SAWFISH OR BILLFISH BILL IS STRONGER THAN ONE WITH A ARTIFICIALY ATTACHED HANDLE. IT WOULD ALSO BE MORE EASILY MADE USING STONE AGE TOOLS ,STONE, BONE, SHELLS, LOOK FOR PRIMATIVE TOOL MARKS WHERE IT IS WORKED AND HEAT UP A BIT OF THE TAR AND SEE IF IT SMELLS OF TAR OR SOMETHING ELSE. SAW MARKS OR TAR WOULD POINT TO A MORE RECENT ORIGIN, I HAVE SEEN A FEW SAWFISH SWORDS RECENTLY MADE IN THE MORE PRIMATIVE FASION IN AUSTRALIA IN THE 1980'S I HAVE A SMALL ONE BUT AM NOT SURE WHERE IT WAS MADE.

[Tim Simmons]

Vandoo,
Please accept my apologies, I did not mean in a personel sense " know nothing" it was directed at the use of the term 'sailor made' without any real thought, I do hope I have not caused offence. I find this site and its members a most enjoyable part of my collecting. Tim

[VANDOO]

NO APOLOGIES NECESSARY TIM, I DIDN'T REALLY TAKE IT PERSONEL.

THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW TIMES IN THE PAST WHEN SUBJECTS WERE DEBATED HERE ON THE FORUM, THIS DOSEN'T WORK WELL AS IN DEBATE ONE SIDE MUST WIN BY DESTROYING OR OUT POINTING THE OTHER. MANY TRICKS ARE USED TO WIN OR SHAKE UP THE OPPONENT INSULTING THE OTHER SIDES POINT OF VIEW AND ASKING FOR CONCRETE PROOF BEING TWO OF THEM. WHILE THINGS CAN BE LEARNED IN DEBATE, I FEEL THAT DISCUSSION WITH SEVERAL POINTS OF VIEW BOTH RIGHT AND WRONG IS MORE PRODUCTIVE. I MAY GIVE MY OPINION OR WHAT FACTS I HAVE WHICH MAY DIFFER FROM PREVIOUS OPINIONS BUT WON'T REFER TO THE OTHER GUYS VIEWS AS PSYCOBABBEL OR FEEBLE MINDED. IT IS A KIND OF COURTESY I PRACTICE AND SOMETIMES I LEARN FROM BEING WRONG OR SEEING SOMEONE ELSE MAKE A MISTAKE AND OCCASIONALY I AM TOTALY BAFFELED AS TO HOW THEY COME UP WITH SOME IDEAS. I SUSPECT SOME OF MY VIEWS MAY FALL INTO THIS LAST BAFFELING CATAGORY :D

[fearn]

Hi Tim and Vandoo,

I don't take "sailor-made" as an epithet either. I love scrimshaw work and knot-work. I was simply thinking of something that someone made, not for warfare or ritual, but because they had a large sawfish bill and some time on their hands.

Neat as this sawbill is, the thing about it is that almost anyone could have made it, using (for instance) a saw, a knife, a file, and some black paint (or tar, or lacquer, or tree gum). It's so simple that's it's lacking the clues we need for a good provenance. Given a suitable sawfish bill, I could make something like that in an afternoon using my Leatherman, and I'm quite sure that Tim could turn out something much more stylish in the same amount of time.

If you want a fanciful scenario, it could have been made by or for the teenage son of a white missionary, store owner, fisherman, or the like. It's the kind of thing that a boy would love, and that would explain its comparative design simplicity.

The other thing I'm glad we uncovered is that sawfish all appear to be listed under CITES. As with ivory, it's worth knowing that one might run into trouble with customs on these things.

F

[punal]

oops! my mistake, wrong one :D

[Tim Simmons]

As this has risen to the surface again, I thought I might add that along with the tarry paint like substance the handle has the crystal like residue of what looks like a gum on it, perhaps this at one time had fibers or chords gummed and wrapped around the handle.

[Tim Simmons]

Just to put a cap on this thread.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/Stoneclub001.jpg

[VANDOO]

HI TIM WHAT WAS THE DATE OF THE EXPIDITION AND IS THERE ANY INFO ON WHERE THE ITEMS WERE COLLECTED?

LOOKING OVER THE THREAD IT SEEMS ABOUT COMPLETE UNLESS WE CAN RUN ACROSS SOME NEW REFRENCES.
I COULD ONLY THINK OF ONE THING TO ADD THE WEAPONS OR RICTUAL ITEMS MADE BY THE TRIBES WERE MADE FOR USE, THOSE MADE BY SAILORS WERE MOSTLY MADE FOR SOUVINEERS OR GIFTS NOT USE. THE SAILOR WOULD BRING HIS HOME AND IT WOULD END UP ON A WALL OR STORED SOMEWHERE.
THE NATIVE ITEMS MIGHT BE DESTROYED IN BATTLE OR WORN OUT AND DISCARDED WHEN MORE EFFECIENT WEAPONS BECAME AVAILABLE FOR INSTANCE METAL AX,SWORD OR GUNS. IF THEY HAD RELIGIOUS OR CEREMONIAL VALUE THEY WOULD PROBABLY HAVE BEEN RICTUALY BURIED OR OTHERWISE DISPOSED OF. SO I WOULD GUESS A LARGER PROPORTION OF SAILOR MADE ITEMS SURVIVED OF COURSE THE NATIVE MADE ONES TRADED FOR BY SAILORS WOULD ALSO HAVE HAD A BETTER CHANCE OF SURVIVAL.

[Tim Simmons]

Hi Vandoo. 1912. There is some of the material collected in the Natural History museum London. I have found that this is a collection of skulls, I thought that sort of thing had stopped by then. I would imagine that some of the insects may be there also. There may be some material at the FitzWilliam Cambridge where Wollaston was a tutor, only to be shot by a pupil who then took thier own life.
http://www.papua-insects.nl/history/Wollaston%20expedition/Wollaston%20expedition.htm

[fearn]

Hi All,

Just saw a new article on sawfishes (http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20070811/bob9.asp). Couple of things in it that are relevant here.

1) I didn't realize when I posted above, but the CITES ban on sawfish trade reportedly goes into effect September 1, 2007. This will ban all international sales of sawfish, dead or alive, whole or in parts.

In addition to international trade, in the US, domestic trade in sawfish will also be banned, since the US follows CITES rules in this regard. Other countries have other rules. I don't know if sawfish bills are like ivory, in that older items are grandfathered in if they have a documented provenance and age. Please check your local laws if you want to sell or buy a sawbill.

2) the reason for the ban is that sawfish have been hammered by coastal development and overfishing (accidental or intentional, see below). Since they grow slowly and reproduce slowly (basically at human rate), every species of sawfish is endangered. Some species are down in the 3,000 animals range.

3) What do people do with sawfish parts, other than carving weapons? According to the article, sawbills are believed to be the most effective tool for repelling demons, disease spirits, and ghosts across Asia (comments?).

So Tim, you can now go into the exorcism business. Have fun!

Bottom line: if you own one of these bills and want to sell it, do it now. Otherwise, it will become an heirloom. Considering how weird and neat these critters are, if you're so inclined, you may want to support conservation and preservation efforts for these species, so that future generations will get to see sawfish bills outside of museums and dusty collections. Realize also that in the old days, they used to get 10 meters long, and now they rarely top three meters, so the longer everyone waits, the bigger they get.

Fearn

[Tim Simmons]

I think I will keep mine. I could make a few bob as a local sham phoowy man. :cool:

[Tim Simmons]

I do not really want to wake the dead but just have to post this link.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/se

arch_o

Perhaps this link will work?

http://www.britishmuseum.org/join_in/using_digital_images/using_digital_images.aspx?asset_i

[VANDOO]

SEEING AS HOW IT LIVES AGAIN I WILL ADD SOME PICTURES. :D
1. SAWFISH SCULPTURE MADE WITH REAL SAWFISH BILL BY YOUNG DR. SUESS HIMSELF IN THE 1930'S
2. BROADBILL SWORDFISH SWORD AND TWO FIDS MADE FROM MARLIN BILLS (MARLIN SPIKE) ECT.
3. AFRICAN MADE EXAMPLE 1946, CUT OUT HANDLE.
4. SAWFISH SWORD WITH INTERESTING HANDLE
5. SAWFISH SWORD
6. CLOSE UP OF VERY OLD BROADBILL SWORDFISH SHOWING PATINA.
I HAVE A NICE EXAMPLE FROM NEW GUINEA BUT THE CAMERAS ARE DOWN SO I CAN'T ADD PIC'S NOW.

LAST YEAR I WAS LOOKING AT A LARGE COLLECTION OF INDIAN ARTEFACTS AND FOSSILS FROM OKLAHOMA. THE FELLOW HAD SOMETHING HE SAID WAS ONE HALF OF A BOW FOUND NEAR OKLAHOMA CITY. IT WAS A BROADBILL SWORDFISH BILL AND A VERY OLD ONE CERTIANLY PRECOLUMBIAN. SO NATIVE AMERICANS BROUGHT ONE FROM THE OCEAN TO OKLAHOMA IN PREHISTORIC TIMES. WEAPON OR CEREMONIAL OBJECT WE WILL NEVER KNOW.

[KuKulzA28]

Found this photo of a drunk man wielding what appears to be a sawfish sword... :shrug:
might be during a festival with self-hurting rituals and stuff... "don't try this at home" :D

http://www.taiwanese-secrets.com/image-files/ancient-chinese-culture-pictures.025.jpg

[Rick]

How can we say whether his intoxication is chemical and not spiritual ?

[fearn]

If that's how one repels demons with a sawfish bill, all I can say is that I hope it was worth it for him.

F

[Tim Simmons]

I think this is worth showing here as well as the European section. German renaissance parade sword.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I think this is worth showing here as well as the European section. German renaissance parade sword.



Salaams Tim Simmons ~ I found an obscure reference book but it is in German "ASMAT MYTHOS UND KUNST" (Berlin Museum) ISBN 3-88609-381-6. This appears to be a masterworks of all things ethnographic in the region Asmat (PNG) I will endeavor to add pictures to your various excellent threads on the areas weapons and quoting this fine reference. It is full of shields bows and spears... etc etc with superb photographs.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

Note; Picture of swordfish and extracts in German.

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, thank you for the images of the sawfish blade in the German reference....impressive research as always!! This establishes of course the presence of these items of ethnographic exotica from the Oceanic regions in Europen context, and now it will be interesting to discover just how far back these were brought into the European countries.

Naturally the possibility of these returning from the East Indies areas via Portuguese, Spanish and Dutch merchant ships who certainly must have been through areas which had indirect contact with some of the habitat regions with sawfish.

It is most helpful to have images posted like this one from the German book on a singular basis as you have done. It is by far best to post images of this kind separately so that observations and associated text can be directed to that specific image and example. In this way these important examples become essential to the discussion.

What is most curious, as we have noted, is this sawfish blade in mounts of medieval style, and shown as a German parade sword. The use of sawfish blades is of course well established in Oceanic regions, but seems most odd in this European context. What was the significance of this, and are there other instances of these kinds of features on other European swords.
We have this sword running concurrently on the European forum so it will be interesting to see what develops.

All best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

About that German parade sawbill: The thing to remember is that there are multiple species of sawfish. The large toothed sawfish historically was found north almost to the straits of Gibraltar (http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/pdfs/rangemaps/largetoothsawfish.pdf). Thus, there's no logistical problem with a sawbill ending up in Europe during Renaissance time or before. Note that I can't identify sawfish bills to species from pictures, and if that sawbill came from an Indo-Pacific species, the connection would be more interesting.

Best,

F

[VANDOO]

IT IS NOT UNUSUAL TO FIND THE SAWFISH OR ITS BILL FEATURED IN THE OLD DRAWINGS AND PRINTS OF THE "CABINETS OF CURIOSITYS" THAT WAS THE PRECURSOR FOR TODAYS MUSEUMS. THESE EARLY COLLECTIONS MADE BY ROYALTY OR THE RICH WERE VERY POPULAR AMONG THOSE CLASSES THEY WERE ALSO THE ONES WHO COLLECTED ARMS AND ARMOR.
THOSE WHO MADE THEIR FORTUNES IN TRADE ESPECIALLY SHIPPING OFTEN SOUGHT OUT OR HAD PEOPLE IN THEIR EMPLOYMENT SEEK THE EXOTIC AND UNUSUAL IN FORIGN COUNTRIES.
I WILL LOOK AND SEE IF I CAN FIND A PICTURE OF A CABINENT OF CURIOSITYS. CROCODILES, LARGE SNAKES,SKULLS, SHELLS ODD BIRDS AND SEA CREATURES ,ECT. A UNICORN HORN, COCO DE MER, DRAGON TOOTH, SEA MONSTER AND OTHER MYTHOLOGICAL BEASTS OR MONSTERS WERE SOUGHT AFTER FOR SUCH COLLECTIONS. BELOW IS A LINK TO WIKIPEDIA.
TWO PICTURES CAN YOU FIND THE SAWFISH BILLS. ENJOY :)

COLLEhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_curiositiesCTIONS.

[T. Koch]

Wow Vandoo, the cabinet of curiosities (Wunderkammer) in the top engraving is that of the great Danish physician and natural historian Ole Worm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Worm) He was one of those old school great men of the world: Part multi(!)disciplinary scientist, part freakshow host - a true rock n' roller while keeping it real and a great inspiration to myself as a biologist!

As an albeit offtopic, (but so very cool) side-note I can mention that, when I, in connection to my work, recently went to meet the curator of the mammal collection at the current Zoological Museum of Copenhagen, I actually held the very same narwhal tusk from the engraving above! -you can see it lying on the middle shelf on the back wall.

Even though it was lying on a huge rack with many other prime specimens of narwhal, this one stuck out above all: Twisted and weird like a corkscrew it is, with a patina that'd make any ivory aficionado drool! Holding it in hand and feeling the brush from the wings of 400 years of history made the hairs on my arms stand up. :D


Cheers, - Thor

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ~ Then I remembered I have one somewhere in my store... :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fearn]

Updated information on sawfishes. It looks like their conservation status (http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/extinction-countdown/2013/07/02/last-chance-for-sawfish/) is even worse than I thought.

At this point, I'd strongly suggest taking a pass on any sawfish bills you see, especially if you have to take it through customs (they're all now protected by CITES). It's too bad, but they are coast and river creatures, and there isn't a lot of space left for them anywhere. Hopefully they can be properly protected and given enough time to recover, so that our grandkids can see sawfish and those bills in something other than a museum.

F

[Tim Simmons]

End of.

[Mercenary]

I just wanted to post the image in the thread "Period Photos of People with Ethnographic Arms", but noticed that there are only photos. So I decided to put some more pictures and information.
From "Seventy two specimens of castes in India":

[Mercenary]

Some more images. And as I know in Italian journal in English will be published the articles of D.Miloserdov ("mahratt" on the forum) about the weapons from rostrum of sawfish in Indo-Persian region.

[ariel]

I guess there are three distinct groups of such "swords":

1. Genuine native examples . Those need to be treated with respect: their owners were true warriors who used the only materials available to them with imagination and dignity.

2. Scrimshaw examples made often (if not mostly) by bored sailors or beachcombers to pass time or just to enjoy the ability to fashion something pretty. Those are good examples of folk arts and crafts, with no connection to any military purpose or tradition. In the same category as trench art.

3. Pretentious mixes of true military parts ( handles mostly) and plain sawfish rostra, despite easy availability of true fighting blades. Those I would view as shameless pretenders, exotics for its own sake and ,- most likely,- touristy items. They have neither fighting purpose, nor artistic flair. Discussing them seriously is akin to pondering upon military significance of General Tso's chicken.

[Mercenary]

I guess
Why guess? You have read the article in Russian. May I post your public review here? Your opinion will be very important for colleagues:

Very good article: a detailed, sober and indisputable examples.
With respect.
Ariel

[Mercenary]

From Palace Museum of Forbidden City. Qing Dinasty:

[Tim Simmons]

Great contribution ! If you were to be slashed by a sawfish sword weapon you would be in a very poor state. I think it has been established that pre industrial communities used these natural resources as weapons. That is all I wanted to show in the beginning.

[VANDOO]

HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF A NATIVE MADE SAWFISH SWORD AND ONE MADE INTO A SOUVENIR FROM COSTA RICA. NO DOUBT THESE SAWFISH BILLS HAVE BEEN OF INTEREST TO MAN FROM PREHISTORIC TIMES EITHER AS A WEAPON OR CURIOSITY OR TROPHY. UNFORTUNATELY THE SAWFISH IS EASILY FOULED IN NETS AND IS FOUND IN SHALLOW WATERS SO IS OFTEN CAUGHT AND KILLED BY ACCIDENT BY THOSE FISHING FOR OTHER KINDS OF FISH. I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF A COMMERCIAL FISHERY FOR THEM SO THEY MUST NOT BE TASTY. THEY ARE THE LAST THING A FISHERMAN WOULD WANT IN HIS NET, CAN YOU IMAGINE A 600 POUND SAWFISH TANGLED IN YOUR NET GETTING IT OUT AND THE DAMAGE DONE TO THE NET WOULD RUIN A DAYS FISHING. AND IT SURE WOULD NOT DO THE SAWFISH ANY GOOD. THOUGH I DON'T LIKE SEEING A PAINTED SAWFISH BILL SOUVENIR I SUPPOSE ITS BETTER THAN JUST THROWING SUCH COOL OBJECTS IN THE TRASH HEAP. :shrug:
#1. & #2. SAWFISH SWORD FROM PAPUA NEW GUINEA NATIVE MADE.
31.75 IN LONG
#3. COSTA RICAN SOUVENIR CIRCA 1960 22 IN. LONG
#4. 12 FOOT LONG ,CAUGHT 1920'S FLORIDA I WOULD ESTIMATE THE BILL TO BE AROUND 30 IN. LONG
#5 & #6 ARE FROM HEDGES OLD BOOK GIANT FISH, I CAN'T VOUCH FOR THE INFORMATION GIVEN, BUT IF TRUE THEY TRULY ARE HUGE.
#7. A VERY LARGE SAWFISH

A BOY CAUGHT A 900 POUND SAWFISH AT GALVESTON TEXAS IN THE 1970'S THERE WERE PICTURES AND AN ARTICLE IN THE PAPER BUT I DON'T REMEMBER THE LENGTH. I HAVE SEEN A LARGE SAWFISH ROSTRUM IN A MUSEUM SOMEWHERE THAT WOULD HAVE MADE A GOOD LADDER TO CLIMB INTO A BUNK BED.

[ariel]

Good examples, Vandoo.
Weapons outlive their purpose and with it their meaning.

Islanders used sawfish swords as true weapons, just like Native Americans used flint knives. They did it for as long as there were no replacements.
When (and if) iron became available, newly-made examples ceased to exist as historical weapons and became art objects, ceremonial/parade contraptions, tourist fodder etc.

I would find it impossible to believe that despite wide availability of iron implements, sawfish swords retained even a minimal role as weapons per se. The Chinese, German and Indian examples shown here are just arts and crafts. Nobody in his right mind would actually pit them against even the crudest steel sword.

As a matter of fact, even steel swords share the same fate: millions of them shed blood in the 17-18 centuries, but now, with tanks, missiles, planes and machine guns, swords are just parade toys.

And in another vein: would any of us collect modern China- or India-made swords made out of even the most beautiful damascus?

[mahratt]

Dear Ariel
Very soon all seriously interested in the matter will be able to draw conclusions on how to, when and who used rostrum sawfish in the Indo-Persia, as a weapon.
I will let you know in this topic name of the journal in which the English language will my article: Using the sawfish rostrums (Pristis pectinatus) as a weapon in the Indo-Iranian region inthe XVth – XIXth centuries.

Best Regards :)

[VANDOO]

MAHRATT I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOUR ARTICLE KEEP US POSTED. HERE IS A PICTURE OF TWO VARIETIES OF SAWFISH FOR COMPARISON. THE SMALL TOOTHED MORE NARROW ONE BEING THE TYPE COMMON IN THE RED SEA AND INDIAN OCEAN. THE BROAD LARGE TOOTHED ONE IS WHAT IS FOUND IN THE GULF OF MEXICO AND LIKELY THRU-OUT THE CARIBBEAN. I DON'T KNOW THE FULL RANGE OF THESE SPECIES. I INCLUDE TWO PICTURES OF A FOSSIL SAWFISH ROSTRUM AND SOME TEETH. THE LARGE SECTION IS 10 INCHES LONG THEY ARE FROM MOROCCO, CRETACEOUS PERIOD. ONCOPRISTUS NUMIDUS SAWFISH.

[mahratt]

MAHRATT I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOUR ARTICLE KEEP US POSTED.

Vandoo, I will inform you as soon as the magazine will appear in print.

[mahratt]

Photos:

[mahratt]

Dear participants of the Forum,
I represent to your attention the article:

[VANDOO]

IS THE ARTICLE IN ENGLISH ? I LOOKED UP HE SITE BUT DID NOT FIND THE RECENT PUBLICATION LISTED OR A WAY TO ORDER IT. THERE ONLY SEEMS TO BE THE ABSTRACT OF THE ARTICLE ON THE FORUM POST IS THERE A WAY TO LINK WITH IT AND READ IT ON THE POST. I LOOK FORWARD TO READING YOUR ARTICLE. THANKS :)

[mahratt]

Yes, dear Vandoo.

Article in English. It is published in the journal: Armi Antiche. I think in the near future article will be available. I myself have not yet received the author's copy of the journal Armi Antiche with my article :)

[ariel]

Vandoo,
I read it in Russian.

As usual, Mahratt presented very impressive factual description of specimens and Internet pictures.

However, the final conclusion is flawed: during 15-19 centuries rostra might have been used as fighting implements by some primitive island societies, but were not true weapons in the Indo-Persian areal or in Europe. They might have served there as processional, decorative, votive or parade curiosities, but the above areas left not only the Stone but even the Bronze Age well behind them.
As I mentioned in an earlier post here, discussing their fighting role is as productive as deliberating about military history of General Tso's Chicken.

I cannot tell you whether in the "Italian" version of the article this obvious error was stemming from a faulty judgement or from poor translation. Hopefully, the latter.

[mahratt]

Vandoo,
dear Ariel, has recently "short memory" (do not know what it is connected) :(

In 2014 (when the article was published in Russian, and I placed it on a Russian forum) Ariel wrote: "Very good article: Unfolded, sober and indisputable examples." This can be confirmed by those participants in the forum who also speak Russian (as Ariel). And they are here in the forum :)

post 284: http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/79/1077965-12.html

So I propose to await the release of the magazine (it will appear in September). Then the one who reads my article, be able to make on the article his personal opinion;)

[ariel]

Well, I can only repeat my earlier assessment: factual descriptions of the examples are very good. Mahratt did an excellent job and should be rightfully proud of it.
It is the conclusions that make no sense.

Hopefully, translation was the real culprit.

[mahratt]

Of course, of course :)

I wonder why it was not mentioned in Russian forum? There were only praise from a reputable Ariel)))) Perhaps, dear Ariel - a very tactful man;) And he was afraid to hurt me? Or maybe the whole thing in the personal animosity that arose over the past two years? ;) Of course not! I think Ariel little forgotten the Russian language, and therefore did not understand my article.

But, I repeat. It is not necessary to impose their views to others. Soon everyone interested will be able to read the article and draw up a personal opinion.

[ariel]

Mahratt,
As a rule I do not wish to enter into direct argument with you.


Let me explain: the minute you put your thoughts on paper and publish them, they become a part of the public domain and are opened to discussion and criticism.

I originally gave you high marks only for your descriptive abilities and still maintain this position. Please pay attention: nowhere and never did I praise your discussions of your material or the quality of your conclusions. I discussed it with you both personally and publicly on some Russian Fora about a host of your papers. You preferred not to take my comments into consideration. This was your unquestionablle right, just as it was your choice to advertise your publications here. But then it is my choice and my right to reflect on their quality.

There is no animosity on my part; just an objective peer review. There is nothing personal, it is only business, and it applies to you just the same way it applies to anybody else .

This is how the game of academic publishing is played. Learn the rules and welcome to the arena.

[Rick]

You know, I would not like being executed by such a weapon.
It would be a very ugly way to die.
So maybe no one carried one into combat.
Instead it's a sword for execution? :shrug:

I haven't read the article yet tbh; this is just an observation. :o

[Ian]

Mahratt,

... the minute you put your thoughts on paper and publish them, they become a part of the public domain and are opened to discussion and criticism. ...

This is how the game of academic publishing is played. ... Ariel has observed correctly that the academic world sometimes can be a tough arena in which to express oneself, and that objective criticism of an academic paper can be blunt at times.

There are some folks here who adopt a strict academic approach in discussing ethnographic edged weapons, and wish to see all opinions justified logically and supported by facts. Other members do not participate in discussions at that level, but rather they prefer to speculate in a less formal manner about how things might be. Personally, I think there is a place for both approaches. Informal, free wheeling discussions freed from the constraints of rigorous proof or supporting data are fun to engage in and sometimes produce some interesting ideas (hypotheses) that can then be looked at more critically.

The different views between those who are looking for an "informal chat" and those who want to engage in a more "rigorous discussion" sometimes has led to problems in our discussions. I would venture to say that most members who contribute to these forums are not from an academic background and do not necessarily wish to engage in "rigorous discussions," but would prefer to engage in a more informal manner. Others who want a more rigorous approach will take exception to a lack of evidence in such ideas. Strong disagreements and tensions may develop. That's one of the reasons why these forums have moderators--to intercede when interpersonal exchanges get overly heated.

When an article is published in a reputable journal (as is the case here) it is an academic paper that has hopefully passed through peer review and is open to rigorous analysis by those who read it. By bringing such a paper to our attention, the author invites Forum members to view it as a serious academic contribution to the field and to subject it to careful scrutiny.

Serious academic contributions, such as the paper mahratt has brought before us, are important information to our field and deserve our careful consideration. Respectful "rigorous discussion" by critics is actually the ultimate compliment to be paid to the author of such an article, and that is what Ariel has offered. Of course, distinguished academic researchers in unrelated fields can be wrong in their opinions about ethnographic weapons, but Ariel is engaging the author in an objective manner that asks for objective responses.

The present discussion of a peer reviewed paper illustrates when a more rigorous discussion is not only appropriate but seems the correct way to approach the information it contains.

Ian.

[mahratt]

Mahratt,
As a rule I do not wish to enter into direct argument with you.


Let me explain: the minute you put your thoughts on paper and publish them, they become a part of the public domain and are opened to discussion and criticism.

I originally gave you high marks only for your descriptive abilities and still maintain this position. Please pay attention: nowhere and never did I praise your discussions of your material or the quality of your conclusions. I discussed it with you both personally and publicly on some Russian Fora about a host of your papers. You preferred not to take my comments into consideration. This was your unquestionablle right, just as it was your choice to advertise your publications here. But then it is my choice and my right to reflect on their quality.

There is no animosity on my part; just an objective peer review. There is nothing personal, it is only business, and it applies to you just the same way it applies to anybody else .

This is how the game of academic publishing is played. Learn the rules and welcome to the arena.


Dear Ariel. It is easy to "play with words" when the majority of the forum participants could not understand that in fact you wrote to me in Russian))))) But now is not even about it. You have studied the article. And I am very happy about it. I look forward to criticism. But only if this criticism on specific issues. Criticism - is first of all check and specific considerations and not the general words. You, dear Ariel, unfortunately, nothing concrete has been said. You just expressed their negative opinion by saying general words.


I'm in my article to make reference to specific historical sources. In September, when the magazine will appear in the press, participants in the forum (which is interested in this topic), be able to read my article and make your own opinion.



Serious academic contributions, such as the paper mahratt has brought before us, are important information to our field and deserve our careful consideration. Respectful "rigorous discussion" by critics is actually the ultimate compliment to be paid to the author of such an article, and that is what Ariel has offered. Of course, distinguished academic researchers in unrelated fields can be wrong in their opinions about ethnographic weapons, but Ariel is engaging the author in an objective manner that asks for objective responses.

Ian.

Dear Ian
Could you cite where respected Ariel make: Respectful "rigorous discussion"? Perhaps the phrase on "history of General Tso's Chicken"?
Thank you in advance for your response.

[ariel]

Rick,

The use of comfy chairs and fluffy pillows as torture devices has already been extensively documented by J. Cleese, E Idle et al.

[mahratt]

You know, I would not like being executed by such a weapon.
It would be a very ugly way to die.
So maybe no one carried one into combat.
Instead it's a sword for execution? :shrug:

I haven't read the article yet tbh; this is just an observation. :o


Rick,
I contacted the publisher. In September, the magazine will appear in print. And you can read the article and make your own conclusions.

[VANDOO]

I OF COURSE AM NOT AND DO NOT CLAIM TO BE AN EXPERT OR AN ACADEMIC BUT JUST A LONG TIME COLLECTOR WHO LOVES COLLECTING AND LEARNING ABOUT THE ITEMS I COLLECT AND THE SOCIETY'S WHO MADE AND USED THEM.
THEREFORE IN ACADEMICIAN CIRCLES NOTHING I OBSERVE OR SAY IS PERTINENT OR TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. PERHAPS MY MEASUREMENTS OF AN ITEM AND PICTURES WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE AS AN INVENTORY BUT LITTLE ELSE.
ACADEMIA IS UNDER THE STRICT CONSTRAINTS THAT EVERYTHING MUST BE PROVENIENCED IN THE SAME APPROVED ARTICLES AND SCIENTIFIC PAPERS THAT ALL USE. DRAWINGS AND TEXT FROM SOME OF THE FAMOUS EXPEDITIONS SUCH AS COOKS EXPEDITIONS ARE ACCEPTED. BUT COOK AND OTHER ACCEPTED SOURCES SURELY DIDN'T SEE EVERYTHING OR LEARN ALL THE STORIES AND BELIEFS THAT MAY HAVE WENT WITH THE ITEMS THEY BROUGHT BACK. MOST SOCIETY'S DO NOT OPENLY SHARE THEIR BELIEFS OR STORIES WITH STRANGERS AND MANY OF THESE EXPEDITIONS DID NOT STAY LONG ENOUGH TO LEARN THE LANGUAGE OR GAIN THE TRUST AND ACCEPTANCE OF THE TRIBES EVEN IF THEY WISHED TO.
I LIKE AND ENJOY THE LORE, STORIES AND SPECULATION AND CONJECTURE USING LOGIC AND COMPARISONS TO OTHER SOCIETIES. THIS CAN NOT BE USED IN ACADEMIC CIRCLES DUE TO THE RULES AND THE CURRENT ACCEPTED FACTS AND PAPERS AND MAY BE LOOKED DOWN ON. BUT I FIND THAT A BIT TOO CONSTRAINED AND LACKING IN INTEREST MANY TIMES SO WOULD PREFER TO HEAR OR READ THE LORE WHICH IS USUALLY MORE INTERESTING.
:D
I THINK THERE IS ROOM FOR BOTH BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO KEEP THEM SEPARATE AS TO WHAT CAN BE PROVED AND WHAT IS SPECULATION OR LORE. AN OBJECT SUCH AS THE SAWFISH WEAPONS WE DISCUSS HERE ARE SURE TO HAVE HAD MANY STORIES AND LORE ASSOCIATED WITH THEM BY THE PEOPLE WHO MADE AND USED THEM. THIS IS LOST OR UNDOCUMENTED BUT BE SURE IT IS LIKELY AS, SUPERSTITION, MAGIC , MANNA AND TABOOS ALL HAD PARTS IN THE HISTORY OF THESE OBJECTS. UNFORTUNATELY EVEN IF THE LORE IS STILL TOLD IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE IN ACADEMIA. ANTHROPOLOGICAL PAPERS POINT TO THESE BELIEFS AND LORE BUT USUALLY CAN'T BE PROVED. SO WE WILL HAVE TO DO THE BEST WE CAN UNTIL THE TIME MACHINE IS AVAILABLE. ;)

[Ian]

Ariel and mahratt. You each have a PM from me.

Ian

[Ian]

Well said Barry.

I OF COURSE AM NOT AND DO NOT CLAIM TO BE AN EXPERT OR AN ACADEMIC BUT JUST A LONG TIME COLLECTOR WHO LOVES COLLECTING AND LEARNING ABOUT THE ITEMS I COLLECT AND THE SOCIETY'S WHO MADE AND USED THEM.
THEREFORE IN ACADEMICIAN CIRCLES NOTHING I OBSERVE OR SAY IS PERTINENT OR TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. PERHAPS MY MEASUREMENTS OF AN ITEM AND PICTURES WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE AS AN INVENTORY BUT LITTLE ELSE.
ACADEMIA IS UNDER THE STRICT CONSTRAINTS THAT EVERYTHING MUST BE PROVENIENCED IN THE SAME APPROVED ARTICLES AND SCIENTIFIC PAPERS THAT ALL USE. DRAWINGS AND TEXT FROM SOME OF THE FAMOUS EXPEDITIONS SUCH AS COOKS EXPEDITIONS ARE ACCEPTED. BUT COOK AND OTHER ACCEPTED SOURCES SURELY DIDN'T SEE EVERYTHING OR LEARN ALL THE STORIES AND BELIEFS THAT MAY HAVE WENT WITH THE ITEMS THEY BROUGHT BACK. MOST SOCIETY'S DO NOT OPENLY SHARE THEIR BELIEFS OR STORIES WITH STRANGERS AND MANY OF THESE EXPEDITIONS DID NOT STAY LONG ENOUGH TO LEARN THE LANGUAGE OR GAIN THE TRUST AND ACCEPTANCE OF THE TRIBES EVEN IF THEY WISHED TO.
I LIKE AND ENJOY THE LORE, STORIES AND SPECULATION AND CONJECTURE USING LOGIC AND COMPARISONS TO OTHER SOCIETIES. THIS CAN NOT BE USED IN ACADEMIC CIRCLES DUE TO THE RULES AND THE CURRENT ACCEPTED FACTS AND PAPERS AND MAY BE LOOKED DOWN ON. BUT I FIND THAT A BIT TOO CONSTRAINED AND LACKING IN INTEREST MANY TIMES SO WOULD PREFER TO HEAR OR READ THE LORE WHICH IS USUALLY MORE INTERESTING.
:D
I THINK THERE IS ROOM FOR BOTH BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO KEEP THEM SEPARATE AS TO WHAT CAN BE PROVED AND WHAT IS SPECULATION OR LORE. AN OBJECT SUCH AS THE SAWFISH WEAPONS WE DISCUSS HERE ARE SURE TO HAVE HAD MANY STORIES AND LORE ASSOCIATED WITH THEM BY THE PEOPLE WHO MADE AND USED THEM. THIS IS LOST OR UNDOCUMENTED BUT BE SURE IT IS LIKELY AS, SUPERSTITION, MAGIC , MANNA AND TABOOS ALL HAD PARTS IN THE HISTORY OF THESE OBJECTS. UNFORTUNATELY EVEN IF THE LORE IS STILL TOLD IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE IN ACADEMIA. ANTHROPOLOGICAL PAPERS POINT TO THESE BELIEFS AND LORE BUT USUALLY CAN'T BE PROVED. SO WE WILL HAVE TO DO THE BEST WE CAN UNTIL THE TIME MACHINE IS AVAILABLE. ;)

[Tim Simmons]

More in the American Museum of Natural history.

I copy and paste the blurb.

SWORD, TWO HANDLE
PACIFIC ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION

Catalog No: ST/ 1716
Locale: NEW GUINEA
Region: MELANESIA
Country: PAPUA NEW GUINEA?/INDONESIA?
Date: Late 19th Century A.D.
Material: BONE (SAW FISH)
Acquisition Year: 1895 [PURCHASE]
Donor: STURGIS, APPLETON
Keywords: SWORD

[Tim Simmons]

Pigorini Museum Rome.

[ariel]

That’s exactly what I was talking about: a tribal fighter with a weapon made from the only material available to him. This is a perfectly genuine and legitimate example well deserving careful consideration.

P.S. Unfortunately I could not find even an electronic form of a full English version of the paper by Mr. Miloserdov published in Armi Antiche. Perhaps the author could post here a scan of it for our information and subsequent discussion. In the absense of such we are limited to the preliminary Russian version published on an informal Russian forum in 2014 as well as the title and the abstract ( both in English) published in the Italian journal in 2016.