Islamic Crossbow?

[B.I]

i am trying to look into the crossbow in medieval and post medieval islamic culture. there are 3 examples known, 'believed' to be islamic. these are almost exactly like the german wood/ivory examples of the 15thC, with a slight styling of the ivory which hints at islamic influence.

is anyone aware of any reference, whether text or image that can validate the existance of this weapon in islamic hands, in any country influenced by islamic culture?

would greatly appreciate any input.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Brian,

I think I have seen a crossbow on an Indian painting - I will have to have a look.

Jens

[B.I]

thanks jens, any help would be greatly appreciated. sculpture or text especially, or persian islamic painting. unfortunately indian painting only flourished after the moghuls, with the very occasional early example being crude and normally not of use.
however, even if it is moghul or post moghul, at least it shows the idea was adapted.
ideally, i am after pre 16thC islam, whether indian, persian, turkish etc. a written accout would be excellent.

[Rivkin]

Ofcoarse:
"The Mamluks in Egyptian politics and society" edited by Thomas Philipp and Ulrich Haarmann
"Studies on the Mamluks of Egypt" David Ayalon

As far as I remember in the first book there is an article on mamluk theology. As I remember Mamluks used "arab" bows (standard bows), "turkish" bows (long, heavy arrows) and "persian" bows (crossbows, or "foot-activated bows"). The latter ones were extremely popular, however there was a theologic problem - nowadays forgotten sunna about Mohammed supervising his troops and saying "why are you using persian swords and bows ? You should use only arab weapons !". The solution was found in stating that he meant that one should not use the weapon of kafir, for persians at the time were kafir.

Since turks and persians converted you can use their weapons, but you can't use firearms for they are "christian sunna" (Ayalon quotes the last speach of Tuman-Bey in which he accuses ottoman in violating this law by using "christian sunna" - guns).

[B.I]

thank you krill, thats wonderful.
do you have these books and can you quote the phrase. if this isnt possible, do remember which book mentioned the crossbow and i will find it and source the quote myself.
much appreciated.

[B.I]

Since turks and persians converted you can use their weapons, but you can't use firearms for they are "christian sunna" (Ayalon quotes the last speach of Tuman-Bey in which he accuses ottoman in violating this law by using "christian sunna" - guns).

very interesting. i am not familiar with 'christian sunna' and its meaning.
the firearms theology i am aware of.
its a strange concept, that if you cut off someones head, the body still remains 'whole' as in, it still exists in the material world, even if in two pieces.
but, firearms cause the body to be partially destroyed when meeting their maker, and so you are undoing what your deity has created.
very strange.

[fernando]

Sorry if this is nonsense ...
What about the muslim crossbow being of portuguese ( or partly ) influence ?
By the time Afonso de Albuquerque defeated and practically controlled all the sea and coast, from the straight of Ormuz, all India west coast, down to Malaca,( around 1505 ), he personnaly took it as a modernity that all the archers from his fleet used the crossbow, while João de Barros and others from the period, quoted that, muslims and turks were armed with normal bows, some of them very powerfull and sofisticated.
At least several crossbows were left back or captured during the inumerous battles ... this could be a start, like other known cases of invader/defender influence on altering or adopting eachother's weapons.
If this is a plausible possibility, i can translate a few historical quotations, added by pictures.

[Rivkin]

1. "Christian sunna" (also known as "hadith of kafirs") is when someone does not follow the islamic tradition - for example erects statues (like spanish umayads) or in opinion of some uses paper money (rather than bimetallic islamic currency system). Handguns were considered "christian sunna" in an extremely orthodox (and in the same time extremely unislamic) mamluk society, i.e. they were considered a chirstian novelty that is prohibited for proper muslims (source - Ayalon quotation of Tuman bey's speach).

2. I'll find this article, but it will probably take some time - I'll have to check out the books from the library, and right now I'm on a little bit tight schedule.

3. As far as I remember the decision of qadis that permitted the use of crossbow was made during the rulership or Calawun, (14th century) or somewhere in this range of time, centuries before the establishment of a portuguese base in Oman. The problem is that crossbow is nearly always referred in islamic sources as a "bow", the paper makes the point in emphasizing that it's (as far as I remember) sometimes is called a "persian bow" or "the bow where string is drawn with the foot". The size of these bows is reported to be completely enormous - elite, extremely strong mamluks were rumored (according to the paper, that I'll dig up :)) to use bolts that weighted up to a few dozen pounds and more.

[Rivkin]

Ok, here are two books that should mention islamic crossbows:
Boas, Adrian J. (1999). Crusader Archeology. New York: Routledge.
Burke, Edmund. (1957). The History of Archery. New York: William Morrow and Company.

[B.I]

thank you krill.
i will chase these books down. is this from memory or do they definately mention the crossbow. a bow pulled by the foot is enough for me but it must be pre 1500.
jens,
i just bumbled across this image from a moghul painting circa 1570. too late for my needs but interesting all the same.

[Rather]

As far as I remember, the crossbow was a weapon typically used by townspeople or on ships. It was much less effective in open ground battle, as the firing rate is much slower (5 to 6 times) compared to a bow. Furthermore, it can’t be used by cavalry, due to the difficult loading procedure. So, if your are looking for such a weapon in the Islamic armies, I suggest to look into the Naval warfare or check areas, where towns were under the thread of siege. Good luck! ;)

[Jens Nordlunde]

Sorry I must have seen the crossbow in a book other than in my own. I have however found something else in Elgood’s Hindu Arms and Ritual.

Page 51. ‘Kautilya’s text as it has reached us with its insertions of identerminate date describes stone-throwing machines and we know from Muslim sources of manjaniqs, maghribis, arradahs and gigant crossbows called charkhs which were used in siege operations (see Toy, Sidney: The Strongholds of India. London 1957)’. And at the bottom of the page. ‘Ferishta is probably reliable when he reports that 5000 Hindus were slain when Muslim cannon fired ‘bags of copper miney’ at point-blank range at the advancing Hindu army during the battle of Talikota in 1565. He also refers to the Hindu use of ‘vast flights of rockets’. Probably rocket throwers, Takhsh-andaz, were carried into battle in howdahs together with grenade throwers, r’ad-andaz, in the army of Sultan Mahmud when he fought Timur at Delhi in 1398, but takhsh can mean a crossbow or an arrow.

See also the Glossary page 249 and 257.

[Rivkin]

thank you krill.
i will chase these books down. is this from memory or do they definately mention the crossbow. a bow pulled by the foot is enough for me but it must be pre 1500.
jens,
i just bumbled across this image from a moghul painting circa 1570. too late for my needs but interesting all the same.

It's from memory, but "The History of Archery" I think certainly mentions the development of islamic crossbow (here my memory becomes vague - was it turks or persian who introduced it). As strange as it sounds they used it against very heavily armored enemies. As far as I remember old turkish shooting style (khazars etc.) very often required archers to dismount even when shooting with bows. Concerning ships, arabs, mamluks and early turks were not very profficient of famous for using them. Navy service was too often dispised and was not considered a "mainstream" career, therefore I (well I'm way too ignorant) don't know of a single famous "mamluk navy" manual.

[Tim Simmons]

Some how I do not think this is what you had in mind, it is a trifle 'ethnographic'. The crossbow was and might still be in use in Malaya. Tim
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/B1.jpg

[B.I]

krill,
thanks for your input. i will check all the sources you have mentioned. i have access to libraries other than my own although i doubt i will find some of the books you mentioned. i will pursue them anyway.
jens,
thanks for the links you sent me, which show the development in china and surrounding countries.
tim,
great picture :) i'd like to imagine a walled garrison to the right, out of shot but think it may be some unfortunate bird who's in for a bit of a shock.

i think what i am looking for is a way to suppress the doubt, academically, that crossbows were made and used by islamic forces pre 1500. the ones i am refering to are too close in construction to german pieces which infuses doubt that they were made by an islamic hand, as apposed to being adapted for use, or made by europeans in islamic countries and pulling in certain artistic traits.
so, i suppose i need the definate period mentions that krill hinted at, maybe in a muslim manual, or sculpture. i do really appreciate everyone help and am sure the truth can be revealed eventually.

[fernando]

In this site you can read some parts relative to Rivkin's quoting Mohamed comdemning the use of non arab ( persian ) crossbows.http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/fes_celebrate.html

[B.I]

In this site you can read some parts relative to Rivkin's quoting Mohamed comdemning the use of non arab ( persian ) crossbows.http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/fes_celebrate.html


thank you fernando. although this steps into religion and mythology, it is still a dated mention of a weapon that could be the crossbow. i can use this, as this information will be passed on to someone (invloved with me) who will try and re-translate this quote, to verify that it is indeed a crossbow, and not a bow. much appreciated.
what i need is also an image, preferable in sculpture that will show the crossbow being used at the time in question. :)

[fernando]

Furthermore, it can’t be used by cavalry, due to the difficult loading procedure. So, if your are looking for such a weapon in the Islamic armies, I suggest to look into the Naval warfare or check areas, where towns were under the thread of siege.
Crossbows, if i learnt it right, since its inventing by the chinese, took all forms of dimensions and uses, from bolt to clay or iron bullit throwers, from siege giants to "small" hunting arms. Also its adoption was much spread within time and regions, not meaning they prevailed with those that originaly adopted it, or if those adopters were the whole of part of a determined race, islamic or other.
The portuguese XV chronicles are univocal at quoting that the local warriors ( along all that coast ) used normal bows, against the portuguese archers crossbows ( no translation problems ). This not meaning that all peoples of India were never familiar to the crossbow, nor that it was of portuguese invention or even of portuguese production ( plenty and good ones were german ).
On the other hand, crossbows were also in cavalry. As an example, King Dom Sebastião ( 1557 ) fought the Moors in Alcacer Kibir with a personal Horse Guard of crossbow archers. There are examples left.
However three centuries before, by the time of christian reconquery (1139-1263 ), the moor armies fighting the portuguese, already had the crossbow in regular weaponry. The "Cauçalarab", depicted in figure 85, was very light and quick to remount. Although it had less penetration power, it came to be adopted by the christians.
Just a pitty is only a drawing and not a picture or a sculpture, to be a solid example of islamic pre-XV century crossbow presence.

[B.I]

hi fernando,
i am not sure what it is you have attached. are these line drawings taken from something else and to what date?
the crossbow i am looking for is of german design, except the style of the ivory fittings, which is islamic in form. the definate presence and use during this period is a good start for me.
thank you for your efforts and please expand more as to where the information came from. modern (post 1500 :) ) depictions are useful, if included with reference that i can backtrack.
thanks again.

[Aqtai]

I used to have G. rex Smith's "Medieval Muslim Horsemanship: A Fourteenth-Century Arabic Cavalry Manual", now long lost. I'm sure one of the pictures was of a mamluk using a crossbow.

[RSWORD]

Brian

One avenue to consider is the archaeological evidence. This past March at the Timonium show one of our presentors was an archaeologist working in Israel. She shared pictures of one of their work sites which was a 13th century walled forte that was embodied by the Europeans. Many interesting items turned up but specifically in regards to what you were looking at were a large number of crossbow bolts of various sizes. There were also a large number of various size stone cannon ball. The evidence suggested the forte was definitely under attack as they found skeletons with sword and bolt injuries and they even found a horse skeleton with bolt still in the bone. Given the various size bolt, they must have had crossbow from handheld to a wheeled type to shoot massive bolts. Matter of fact, as I recall, they had several Crusader fortes under dig and were finding a lot of archaeological evidence to suggest the crossbow was in strong use in the 13th century. It doesn't help with what the bow itself looked like but it is strong evidence of their use.

[Rivkin]

I used to have G. rex Smith's "Medieval Muslim Horsemanship: A Fourteenth-Century Arabic Cavalry Manual", now long lost. I'm sure one of the pictures was of a mamluk using a crossbow.

It's basically the same as Rabie blah-blag Training bla-h bla-h Mamluk Faris,
and I think it's the same text that was quoted in David Nicolle's mamluks (unofortunately my library does not have this book).

Ok, if it's important I can get most of the books I quoted in my library.

[B.I]

hi aqtai,
i have found a copy of this book and will look into it. do you remember the nature of the image, ie were they modern depictions, or period manuscripts?
rick,
unfortunately, any archeology evidence from crusader sites may yield crossbow bolts, but from which side? i know the europeans had crossbows, and i have no doubt the muslims may have used captured weapons, if they were an 'advanced' technology that they deemed useful.
however, i am after a crossbow definately made by a muslim hand. the examples in existence are of complete form, but the speculation and debate is whether they were made by muslims, of just a variation of the german design.
still much appreciated and please carry on :)

[B.I]

2 examples of 15thC european crossbows, both in italy (not in the same place). these are of the type i am looking for. the differences between the 'islamic' and the european are very minor, and just in the style of fittings.

[B.I]

Ok, if it's important I can get most of the books I quoted in my library.

its important to me and i would greatly appreciate any help you can give. its not just a general enquiry, and the results (if any definate ones occur) will go towards publication. it is for this reason that i am trying to push this past speculation.
thanks again.

[Aqtai]

hi aqtai,
i have found a copy of this book and will look into it. do you remember the nature of the image, ie were they modern depictions, or period manuscripts?
rick,
unfortunately, any archeology evidence from crusader sites may yield crossbow bolts, but from which side? i know the europeans had crossbows, and i have no doubt the muslims may have used captured weapons, if they were an 'advanced' technology that they deemed useful.
however, i am after a crossbow definately made by a muslim hand. the examples in existence are of complete form, but the speculation and debate is whether they were made by muslims, of just a variation of the german design.
still much appreciated and please carry on :)

I no longer have this book, but I do vaguely remember a picture of a mamluk with a crossbow. The picture, if it exists, is a late 14th century Egyptian (?) miniature painting.

[B.I]

thanks aqtai,
if this is the case then this is exactly what i am looking for. i will chase this book down and let you know.

[Marc]

Ok, I’m a bit short of time, so, I apologize for “sniping” like this, but I thought that some of these things might be of interest…


In Spain there's documentation about the use of the crossbow by Moorish forces from at least the 13th c.
From that age, in the Cantigas de Alfonso X can be seen contingents of Muslims accompanied by crossbowmen, especially in sieges. It can be argumented, tough, that at that time in Spain (to make a short story of it) wasn't unusual to hire groups of armed men to join one's armies, regardless of their faith, as long as they were going to be reliable. So, Moorish troops could be found in Christian armies, and Christian men in Moorish armies. At that period, also, one would have a hard time to distinguish Moorish from Christian warriors by their panoply, defensive or offensive, alone. Especially in border territories. Sorry, I haven't been able to find online images from the Cantigas that showed the crossbows. But I think it’s something worth mentioning.
From a bit later, we have the frescoes found in the Torre de las Damas (“Tower of the Dames”, in the Partal House, The Alhambra, Granada), from about 1350, and where an army in the march is represented and mounted crossbowmen in Moorish outfit can be seen.

As told by himself, at 1238, while besieging the city of València, then in Muslim hands, King Jaume I of Aragon is hit in the forehead by a crossbow bolt that goes through his helmet and wounds him. The King grabs the bolt, pulls it out, rises in his stirrups and shouts angrily to the city walls in front of his astonished court. Then goes back to his army’s camp, rides around a bit, wiping the blood that falls from his face, to let his men know for sure he’s ok (morale being important in these feudal armies), and then retires to his tent where he spends some days with an horrible headache.

At the other side of the Mediterranean, we have a treatise from 1180 written by Al-Tartusi (I think that in Alexandria) for Saladdin, where, among other weapons and engines, crossbows (yes, the hand-held variety) are discussed. This was, for example, prior to the use of the stirrup, IIRC.

On the other hand, at 1199, King Richard the Lionheart is killed at Acre by a crossbow bolt.

There’s a Nasrid crossbow (sorry, I don’t know the exact attributed date, but the Nasrid dynasty spans from 1231 to 1492) in Granada’s Archaeological Museum (a couple of references here (http://www.legadoandalusi.com/legado/contenido/exposiciones/exp11.html) and here (http://regesta-imperii.uni-giessen.de/guest-lit/gshow.php?pk=349998) )


Some information, including iconography (although quite badly reproduced), about the use of the crossbow in Al-Andalus and the bit about the Cantigas can be found in the book:
SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellan-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E, Madrid, 1993.
It's out of stock, right now, but it can be found via interlibrary loan.

More interesting, being in English, would be:
NICOLLE, David. "Early Islamic Arms and Armour", Ed. by Instituto de Estudios sobre armas antiguas, Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas, Madrid(?), 1976. Also out of stock, I’m afraid.

Finally, and knowing you have access to someone who can read Spanish, I think you might find this reference (http://www.alyamiah.com/cema/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=403) of the utmost interest…


I hope this helps, somewhat. Again, sorry for not elaborating.

[B.I]

marc,
please feel free to 'snipe' any time you want :)
also, if this is the casual information you can provide when in a hurry, then i look forward to you sitting down with time!
your information was very helpful, and i had always suspected the information needed would come from a spanish source, due to the heavy involvement with moors and a cross-culture that was never more prevelant than in the 'medieval' period.
i shall get the link you sent translated and hope it holds some good information. you hint that it does, but my spanish doesnt get much further than ordering a couple of beers in a bar.
also, i will try and search this source -

SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellan-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E, Madrid, 1993.

no matter how poor, any iconography is desperately needed.
the Nasrid crossbow sounds intriguing, is there any images available. the two links you sent are in spanish, but do these sites hold images?
again, i can get the text sifted through.
also, the frescoes in Torre de las Damas - are there any publications that show these.

please expand when you have time. i will not be able to get the texts translated for another week, so expect some questions from me.

King Jaume I of Aragon sounds like a tough guy. a mere headache from a headshot! i wonder if that goes into mythology and fantasy. i remember the story of the sikh warrior who continued fighting after his head was cut off!!
if not, i think charlton heston ought to come out of retirement, put down his rifle and don a spanish sword for there is another epic to be made :)

thanks again.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Elgood: Firearms of The Islamic World, page 115, you will see a miniature with at least two crossbows – dated c. 1500. Too late for you I guess.

Syed Zafar Haider: Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India, page 186. Two drawings of crossbows, one from Egypt 11th century, in Museum of Islamic Art, Cairo and one from a miniature shown in ‘Zafar Nama’ c. 1467. In the text about crossbows he writes:

Takhsh.
A rare example of a crossbow is illustrated in the late fifteenth century Persian manuscript Zafar Nama. Under the nomenclature takhsh it is further mentioned in the manuscript as a part of the arsenal used by the Muslim Indian armies fighting against Timur.

A drawing in ink from the eleventh century, Egypt proves the presence of this weapon with the Islamic armies much before it became popular in Europe. Ease and effectiveness with which the composite bow was used prevented the crossbow from gaining favour with the Islamic armies. It is for this reason that no example of such a weapon has reached us from the past.

The crossbow from Egypt is a multipurpose weapon, a spear and a crossbow. Maybe they have other crossbows at the museum, but anyway it shows, that they knew the crossbow very early.


Jens

[B.I]

thank you jens,
could you please post the two drawings from haiders book. i can try and trace the manuscript here and find the reference.
attached is a persian inlaid silver bottle from the 13thC, in the freer gallery of art.
this is a good start but much more is still needed and much appreciated, as ever.

[B.I]

jens,
the image from firearms of the islamic world is great. although later, it clearly shows the crossbow being used at a developed stage, by someone that could only have been persian. it definately helps.
this shows that it was definately used and is a good introduction to begin the process of successive and comparative investigation.

[Jens Nordlunde]

The one to the left is the one from 11th century; the other one is from 15th century. Sorry for the bad pictures but they are placed very close to the spine.
To compensate for the bad quality, I also attach an Italian Walnut Stone Bow, early 17th century - although it is very late for your use.


Jens

[Marc]

Brian,
Just trying to drown you with work, you know... :)

About the books:
If you manage to take a peek to a facsimile copy of the Cantigas de Alfonso X (the tome in the Monasterio de El Escorial's library, IIRC) you'll find the images (Cantigas number 28, 99 and 187, crossbows in Muslim hands, there may be more). On the other hand, Soler del Campo's book may be easier to get...
The frescoes in the Torre de las Damas in the Alhambra are also shown there, though in the form of a drawing. Said drawing was done long ago by Gomez-Moreno, an Spanish arabist and archaeologist, and I seem to remember (might be wrong, here, but it can be checked) that the original frescoes are almost illegible now. They are also found in Nicolle's book. By the way, given its date of publication, I'm sure that this information must be found in other, later books by Dr. Nicolle dealing with the same subject (like "Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era", maybe, and some others) that might be easier to find.

Sorry, not images of the Nasrid crossbow that I can be sure of. The sites have information about it, one is a reference for a monography and the other is about an old exhibition that displayed it and that probably have a catalogue somewhere.

Oh, and the incident in front of Valencia is told by the King himself in his Crònica ("Chronicle"), that is quite faithful. It's not that strange, if one analyzes the circumstances, the helmet saved him from what it probably was a quite long-distance shot to start with. Besides, Jaume I, called El Conqueridor ("The Conquerer"), was also a formidable man, standing more than 2 m. tall. And he says that he had an horrible headache for several days. Maybe not really the stuff of legends... but a good deal of sheer luck, at least, well, that's for sure. :D

Oh, and I thought it might be worth mentioning that, IIRC, the Mamluk Sultan Baybars I, who was involved in the coup of 1250 and took later the power in Egypt in 1260 after defeating the Mongols in Ain Jalut, at some point in his career was the commander of the Mamluk units of crossbowmen.

Jens, just a small nitpick, the crossbow was well-established in Europe in the 11th c. There's for example a representation of a crossbowmen in the Beatus of Burgo de Osma dated in 1086.

P.D.
but my spanish doesnt get much further than ordering a couple of beers in a bar.
Well, that's not bad at all, don't let you be led to think us Spaniards use our language for anything less important... :D

[fernando]

Hi B.I.
The "Cuçalarab" shown in the the aquarel nr. 85 is part of the Moors armament in the 12th century, in the occupied peninsula. It is a modern drawing, to illustrate historical research for a miniature making company. It was just to confirm ( and reconfirm ) that the crossbow, in whatever variation, was used by arabs or muslims much before the VXV century.
But certainly this this isn't what you are looking for. Nor even the attached scanning of an illumination on "Chronicles of England" by Jean Wavrin ( 1498 ).
Certainly you are close from finding what you need.

[Aqtai]

...
Oh, and I thought it might be worth mentioning that, IIRC, the Mamluk Sultan Baybars I, who was involved in the coup of 1250 and took later the power in Egypt in 1260 after defeating the Mongols in Ain Jalut, at some point in his career was the commander of the Mamluk units of crossbowmen...

I'm not too sure about that:). I think this belief has come about because one of Beybars' titles was El-Bunduqdari. This has often been translated as "the crossbowman" in the belief that bunduq means crossbow. Which is reasonable when you consider that the modern Arabic name for rifle is bunduqiyah. However El-Bunduqiyah is also the Arabic name for Venice and bunduq in Arabic means hazelnut. I have seen suggestions that in Mamluk times the name bunduq was actually used for pellet bows, also reasonable when you consider the size and shape of a pellet.

Beybars had this title because his first master was the emir Aydekin El-Bunduqdar, which translates either as Aydekin the pellet-bow bearer, or Aydekin the crossbow bearer, depending on how you translate bunduq. This title was a court position, and referred to the sultan's attendents. There were also silahdars, sword bearers; tabardars, axe bearers and jukandars, polo-stick bearers. Sultan El-Salih Ayyub later purchased Beybars from Aydekin, which is how he came to be one of the Bahri mamluks.

[Marc]

Aqtai:

Ah! Thank you! Learning never stops, indeed. :) I appreciate very much the clarification on the Baybars issue.

[Aqtai]

Aqtai:

Ah! Thank you! Learning never stops, indeed. :) I appreciate very much the clarification on the Baybars issue.

You're welcome! :)

I've had a look at the Italian pellet crossbow posted by Jens again. I'm now wondering if during the Mamluk period the term bunduq actually referred to pellet-crossbows.

I'm also struck by the fact that Jens called it an Italian "walnut" crossbow, and that the word bunduq means hazelnut.

Mind you, bunduq is also the Arabic name for the Disney character "Goofy". :D I don't think the mamluks knew about him though... ;)

[Jens Nordlunde]

Well actually I called it an ‘Italian Walnut Stone Bow’, and the design could suggest, that it was made for shooting stones rather than arrows. Was it?
My knowledge of crossbows is more than limited:(.

Jens

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Brian,
I've been following this thread with great fascination, as I admit that the crossbow or any bows for that matter, are far outside my field of study. I have learned a great deal from the fantastic and well referenced material that has been posted here, and am intrigued by your topic and especially that what you are researching may be published. It is clear that little material is available on Islamic crossbows, particularly specific references in the West. It seemed quite inevitable that with the well established Moorish/European associations the most relevant material presented would be from Spain and Portugal with the outstanding data from Marc and Fernando. Indeed all the posts have added so much pertinant data that the history of these deadly weapons becomes much more approachable.

While it appears you are searching for specific data on an example noted, I have checked through some resources that may add some data from the historical perspective. In checking "Islamic Arms & Armour" ed. by R. Elgood (London,1980), the chapter titled "Archery in the Lands of Eastern Islam" by J.D.Latham & W.F.Peterson presents interesting discussion of the various bows and thier use, but no mention is made of crossbows. The prior published work of the authors is cited as "Saracen Archery: An English Version and Exposition of Mameluke Work on Archery c.1368 AD" (London, 1970). In the content of this work, the profound religious view of the expertise of a Muslim warrior with the bow seems well qualified, and seems to concur with the reference noted in earlier post where the 'Persian' crossbow is ordered discarded and the Arab bow was to be used.

In checking further in "Armies of the Caliphs" (Hugh Kennedy, London, 2001), there is considerable detailed discussion on warfare, tactics and especially on weapons. In that chapter, while weaponry and armour is well covered, it is noted on p.105 that "...neither in the case of the Khurisaniya nor of the Abna, is there any clear discussion of bows and archery". While this is obviously a somewhat isolated note, it seemed to exemplify the seemingly limited material on this topic.

Although there appears to be considerable absence of reference to the crossbow as noted in the early Islamic literature, whether because of the general terminology or its use being deferred for Orthodox reasons, it does seem likely that the Persians may have developed interpretations. I think that Jens' reference to the technology of siege engines and catapults may hold some of the potential for this thought, as well as a reference I found concerning more ancient origins for the crossbow.
In "The Ancient Engineers" (L. Sprague de Camp, N.Y. 1960) on pp.106-107, the author notes, "...the earliest crossbow was called a 'gastrapheles' or 'belly weapon' because of the curved crosspiece at the butt end, which the arbalester braced against his chest. It was also called a hand catapult and a scorpion. Although the crossbow was well known from the 4th c. AD on, it never attained the popularity in classical times that it achieved in medieval Europe. The only detailed description of an ancient crossbow that we have is by Heron of Alexandria, who describes a rather cumbersome device with a bow of horn and the elaborate working mechanism of larger catapults".

While this material does not provide answers specifically, I am hoping it will provide perspective that will constructively add to the outstanding references already posted in this thread. I also found some additional titles that could possibly be helpful:
"Arab Archery" N.A.Faris & R.P.Elmer , Princeton, 1945
"A Bibliography of Archery" F.Lake & H. Wright, Manchester, 1974
"The Crossbow, Medieval and Modern" Sir R Payne-Gallway, London 1958
"Book of Archery" G.A.Hansard, London, 1840

With very best regards,
Jim

[Rivkin]

My memory was almost entirely right (with an exception of that I interchanged "persian" and "turkish" bows).
"The Mamluks in Egyptian politics and society" edited by Thomas Philipp and Ulrich Haarmann has an article on p.174 "The late triumph of the Persian bow: critical voices on the Mamluk monopoly on weaponry". It deals mostly with the issue that while descendants of the prophet were banned from carrying weapons, sons of idolaters (mamluks) were the only ones permitted to do so. On p.184 it discusses the crossbows - they had two names "qaws ak zaytun, qaws al jarkh, qaws al-rijl" (not bunduq) and "turkish bow". Some of these bows where possibly some sort of siege machines rather than ordinary crossbows (I can't exactly envision a crossbow firing a 90kg bolt ?).

The nomenclature of bows comes from religious discussions of Ibn al-Qayyim (d.1350) and others on whether a muslim can use weapons of non-muslims (since the prophet himself in principle did not use the weapons of kafir). Crossbows where seen as an introduction made by mamluks from the lands of kafir.

It's a very interesting article, unfortunately (or fortunately) it mostly refers to original sources in arabic with an exception of works I already cited here.

[fernando]

You can read in the "Historia Silense " ( Perez de Urbel y Ruiz-Zorrilla - pages 189-190 ) , in the year 1028 , during the conquist of Coimbra by Fernando I, the relate of the punishment inflicted to a Moor, that has killed his father in law Afonso V, with a crossbow.
These type of texts are or come from writings of the period, and there is no misinterpretation of terminology. A bow is an "arco" ( arch ) and a crossbow is a "besta" ( beast ) or whatever subnames derived from the crossbow evolution and variations.
In the French National Library of Paris, there is ( at least ) an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480, where you can clearly see the gear of both Otoman Turks and the Knights Hospitalers ( St. John of Jerusalem ), with the Turks using a consistent shape of crossbows ( one with a highly powerfull cranequin, a ratchet device that spanned a 450 ratio tension ).
Naturally all this showering of examples don't bring a label stating " Made in Islam ", but you are getting each time closer to something solid.

[B.I]

hi all,
sorry for going absent on my own post. i seem to have walked back into some great, and very useful contributions.
jim, as you say i always thought that the greatest link would be from spain, but in my ignorance, i had not thought of portugal. i have access to saracen archery, but although i havent had a chance to access it, from previous viewings i didnt think it would yield any confirmed answers. i was looking into other things at the time so i hope i am wrong.
agtai, what you are doing is what all academics have to do. as the published accounts have produced all that they can, it is time to backtrack back into the original translations, and try and steer research past the set stumbling blocks. this has been happening for some time on the well accepted manuscripts in the hope that a re-translation may offer a different perspective. i am pleased to hear that you tackle this in the same way. i truly look forward to new finds.
krill, thanks for confirming your reference. i got the feeling this involved unpacking material and i really appreciate the effort. i will access the book and see if i can track down his references. i can get these translated, or at least read to see if they can offer any more information.
marc, your contributions have been great. you mention Cantigas de Alfonso X with illustrations. i have found this book on a few sites, but can you confirm an author. as the title is in spanish, the booksellers tend to be spanish and i would hate to buy the wrong book. i will try and send some examples for you to choose which is the correct version.
fernando, your image is wonderful. many thanks! the illustration you say is an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480. can you confrim a date for this image? this is important and it would have to have been painted within that period. also, can you tell the the book it came from.
i really do appreciate all the help, and hope that more references will be found in time, and posted here.

[Rivkin]

B.I.: you are welcome, no problem. I've finished Burke "History of Archery" and "Turkish Archery" by Klopsteg and I have to say their opinion on what is crossbow and what is not is entirely different. Only turkish bow where the stirrup mechanism is explicitly mentioned is certianly a crossbow (such things indeed appear in the mentioned article in "Mamluks in Egyptian ..."). The rest of the bows seem to regular bows, and "foot bows", which the article takes to be crossbows, is just the way these bows where used - two legs holding the frame, two arms used to draw the string. My impression from Burke that qaws something is not related to the crossbow unless some special device used to draw the string is mentioned, so only some of them where actual crossbows.

[fernando]

It's allways a pleasure to be usefull, B.I
I found this illlumination by chance, in a book edited in portuguese, about piracy and corso.
I later found that it is included in the written account of Guillaume Caoursin, titled " Descriptio Obsidionis Rhodiae urbis " ( circa 1490 ), an eye witness of the events, actually the vice-chancelier of the Knights siege defenders at Rhodes. It is kept at the Bibliotheque National in Paris, MS lat.6067, f. 55v.
But coming to Turk crossbow version, you can also track, before these Ottomans in the Rhodes episode, already their antecessors, the Seljuks ( XI-XIII century ), having crossbowmen in their armies.
Keep Well

[RSWORD]

Brian,

I was at the bookstore today and ran across a book that may be of assistance to you. It is a current book by Dr. David Nicolle titled "God's Warriors" and researches the arms of the Crusaders and those of Saladdin's armies from the 11th to 13th centuries. There are a few references to crossbows being part of the Muslims armies. One in particular that is pictured illustrates a crossbow mounted inside a shield. Although no date is provided one has to assume it dates between the 11th and 13th century since all illustrations provided date to this period. This particular document was referenced to the Bodleian Library, Ms. Hunt 264, f. 117 Oxford England. There are a lot of great source material referenced in this book that talk about the weapons used in this early time frame. If you do not have this book, it might be worth tracking down just for the list of manuscripts with data that would appear important to your research.

Regards,

Rick

[B.I]

Brian,

I was at the bookstore today and ran across a book that may be of assistance to you. It is a current book by Dr. David Nicolle titled "God's Warriors" and researches the arms of the Crusaders and those of Saladdin's armies from the 11th to 13th centuries. There are a few references to crossbows being part of the Muslims armies. One in particular that is pictured illustrates a crossbow mounted inside a shield. Although no date is provided one has to assume it dates between the 11th and 13th century since all illustrations provided date to this period. This particular document was referenced to the Bodleian Library, Ms. Hunt 264, f. 117 Oxford England. There are a lot of great source material referenced in this book that talk about the weapons used in this early time frame. If you do not have this book, it might be worth tracking down just for the list of manuscripts with data that would appear important to your research.

Regards,

Rick


thanks rick,
i will definately look into it. oxford is not too far and even closer via a telephone first. will track down the book and check out your reference.
much appreciated.

[Aqtai]

I found Rex Smith's book, but there was no picture of a Mamluk with a crossbow. :(

[Jens Nordlunde]

Although this is a bit besides the question asked by Brian, I think it may be of interest. When reading ‘The Great Moguls’ by Bamber Gascoigne. Page XVIII. ‘On December 17 (1398) the army of Mahmud Shah and Mallu Khan emerged from the gates of Delhi: ten thousand horses, forty thousand foot and a phalanx of the dreaded elephants, clanking forward in their armour and with long swords bound to their tusks. On their backs were fortified turrets bristling with archers and crossbowmen and even specialists using primitive rockets and devices for slinging hot pitch. But this straightforward Indian magnificence was no match for unorthodox cunning. By the end of the day Mahmud and Mallu had fled back into the city and straight out again the other side, and the victorious Timur was pitching his camp by a large reservoir outside the walls.’

Page 11. ‘Through the winter of 1500 Babur was secure in Samarkand, but the following spring Shaibani Khan returned to besiege him. Babur again pitched his tents on the roof of the college, from which advantage point he directed operations – and he claims even to have done effective work from there with a crossbow when a party of Uzbegs had slipped into the city and were trying to storm his headquarters – but Shaibani Khan was more interested in starving out the garrison.’

It is interesting to note, that the Indians did use crossbows rather early, although it is the first time I have seen any mention of it, the same goes for Baburs use of a crossbow in Samarkand.

Sorry Gentlemen, no photos from the place of scene – only these quotations.

[B.I]

its all helpful jens.
i must admit i cant help chuckling when anyone references bamber gascoigne, but i'm afraid its a very british joke.
bamber gascoigne is legendary over here for presenting a very popular university quiz on primetime tv. no idea how long he id it, but would think maybe 20 years, over the 70's and 80's. anyone that is 30+ will know who he is and because he was so iconic, he is almost at cult status here.
what no one actually knows is that he was a writer first and his book 'the great moghuls' is a great read and maybe the best book on an overall moghul history. not in depth of course, as its a 250 page paperback, but its very easy to read and gives a great base knowledge to expand from. i still re-read mine every few years (bad memory). his passion was always moghul art and architecture (and history) and he wrote a number of article for the V&A as well. i highly recommend his book for anyone who wants knowledge without the headache of hardline academia.

[Jens Nordlunde]

If you take ‘The Book of the sword’ by Richard F. Burton, you can on page 19, note 6, read this. The crossbow is apparently indigenous amongst various tribes of Indo-China, but reintroduced into European warfare during the twelfth century (Yule’s Marco Polo, ii, 143).

Note 1 on page 37 also mentions a crossbow from Benin, and lastly on page 165 the crossbow is mentioned again at the bottom of the page.

The first, note 6, is interesting as it goes back to the twelfth century – if this is correct that is.
I don'r know which edition of Marco Polo Burton is refering to, be course in my copy there is no mention of a crossbow on page 143 in volume II.

[B.I]

hi,
i have been meaning to revive this post for some time, but the thought of dredging back through my notes was too daunting. i would like to thank everyone that helped, especially marc who continued to find some great information. i do have a few more questions, mainly to confirm and expand what already been discussed.

marc -
you mentioned Cantigas de Alfonso X showing muslims carrying crossbows. has this been published in any form that i can access?
also, is there an illustration anywhere of the frescoes found in the Torre de las Damas and do they indeed show mounted crossbowmen?
and you mentioned the death of King Jaume I of Aragon. is this legend or can i find a published account. i did search for a while, but only found reference of his death, and no actual details. is there a book i can find?
the treatise from 1180 written by Al-Tartusi - can i find this published anywhere to see the reference to crossbows.
is the facsimile copy of the Cantigas de Alfonso X available anywhere (British library - or better to buy?)
also, you said -
The frescoes in the Torre de las Damas in the Alhambra are also shown there, though in the form of a drawing. Said drawing was done long ago by Gomez-Moreno, an Spanish arabist and archaeologist, and I seem to remember (might be wrong, here, but it can be checked) that the original frescoes are almost illegible now. They are also found in Nicolle's book.do you mean the frescoes are shown in soler del campos book? also, which nicholle book are you refering to?
also, is is worth tracking down soler del campos book? are the illustrations clear enough to make out the crossbow?

fernando -
you mentioned "Historia Silense " ( Perez de Urbel y Ruiz-Zorrilla - pages 189-190 ) is this in portuguese? do you have this publication and could you scan the relevant pages (inc title page)? this would be of great help, and i could get it translated here.
also, you said -
In the French National Library of Paris, there is ( at least ) an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480, where you can clearly see the gear of both Otoman Turks and the Knights Hospitalers ( St. John of Jerusalem ), with the Turks using a consistent shape of crossbows ( one with a highly powerfull cranequin, a ratchet device that spanned a 450 ratio tension ).you also showed the illustration, but is there any more details (artist, date) on this painting? can you let me know the book the image came from?

krill - your references were great and i am tracking them down.
again, thanks to everyone else. this post provided enough information to answer the question and the sources tapped into were astounding.

[Marc]

Hello, Brian.

Ok, let's see...


marc -
you mentioned Cantigas de Alfonso X showing muslims carrying crossbows. has this been published in any form that i can access?


Yes, it's a well-studied book... but not from the point of view of military matters. So, in many of the published works related to it you can't be sure the illuminations you're interested in are in fact reproduced. Your best bet is a facsimile of the original illuminated manuscript (held at the El Escorial Library), but these tend to be... well, quite extremely expensive. Also, the book by Álvaro Soler del Campo is absolutely out of print, near-impossible to get. You can try, if you want, maybe you're luckier than me:
SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellano-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E (Colección Adalid, #33), Madrid, 1993.
ISBN: 84-86806-44-5
But I wouldn't hold my breath.

Nonetheless, I think the best course of action is the following: I'll try to photocopy the relevant figures in the book, together with the related text (in Spanish, I'm afraid) and send them to you. The images are small, in b&w, and, sincerely, quite bad overall. But should be OK if strictly for reference purposes. If you want better images, I found that there's what seems to be a good facsimile of the Cantigas original book in the BL:

Here's the reference (http://catalogue.bl.uk/F/UKMY4BIEFD67DQ234RSSAQ6Y2MPM1HCXC1XM8X3NVYP2MMXIHJ-00683?func=full-set-set&set_number=021327&set_entry=000049&format=999)

Next:
also, is there an illustration anywhere of the frescoes found in the Torre de las Damas and do they indeed show mounted crossbowmen?


Yes, they're mounted crossbowmen. As far as I know there's only one illustration of these frescoes: the pencil sketch done by Gómez Moreno at the end of the 19th c. It is the one you'll find reproduced everywhere. I have it Soler del Campo's Book and some other sources, I'll photocopy it for you. Funny how things go... the drawing was done by Gómez Moreno senior, a painter and proto-archaeologist. His son was a famous and prolific archaeologist, and I went a couple of weeks ago to Granada to research his personal archives, now in a Foundation that bears his name, and got a book about Gómez Moreno senior only to have a better example of these drawings...


Next:

and you mentioned the death of King Jaume I of Aragon. is this legend or can i find a published account. i did search for a while, but only found reference of his death, and no actual details. is there a book i can find?

Yes. The incident with the crossbow bolt is described in the King's own words in a Crònica (Chronicle) written (or made written) by himself. It is also known as Llibre del Feyts or "Book of the Deeds". There's some English translations, I found one in PDF for you here (http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/jaume_forster.pdf). Look at chapter/paragraph number 266 (page 136), where the mentioned incident is described. If you look for the word "crossbow" in the text some other references of thier use in Muslim hands could appear, tough I think the majority of them relate to its use by Christians.


the treatise from 1180 written by Al-Tartusi - can i find this published anywhere to see the reference to crossbows.

I'm sorry, no idea, here, but there is an article (in French, I'm afraid), by Claude Cahen that might be of interest. I'ts published in the Bulletin d’études orientales, and it's entitled Un Traité d’armurerie compose pour Saladin. [On the treatise of Murḍā ibn 'Alī al-Ṭarsūsī contained in Bodleian MS. Hunt. 264. With extracts.]. The reference I found in the BL is here (http://catalogue.bl.uk/F/UKMY4BIEFD67DQ234RSSAQ6Y2MPM1HCXC1XM8X3NVYP2MMXIHJ-03327?func=full-set-set&set_number=032782&set_entry=000027&format=999)

I would like to, again, strongly recommend you to take a look at the article I referenced you here (http://www.alyamiah.com/cema/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=403) as it deals with the references to the crossbows in a Moorish manuscript on archery, the original text of which is dated to around 1069-1091. The PDF version of this article is here (http://www.alyamiah.com/cema/modules.php?name=News&file=printpdf&sid=403)



is the facsimile copy of the Cantigas de Alfonso X available anywhere (British library - or better to buy?)
See above for the reference to an exemplar in the BL


also, you said -
The frescoes in the Torre de las Damas in the Alhambra are also shown there, though in the form of a drawing. Said drawing was done long ago by Gomez-Moreno, an Spanish arabist and archaeologist, and I seem to remember (might be wrong, here, but it can be checked) that the original frescoes are almost illegible now. They are also found in Nicolle's book.do you mean the frescoes are shown in soler del campos book? also, which nicholle book are you refering to?

See also above. The Nicolle's book is the one I referencied in my first post:
NICOLLE, David. "Early Islamic Arms and Armour", Ed. by Instituto de Estudios sobre armas antiguas, Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas, Madrid(?), 1976.
Also absolutely out of print, I'm afraid.

Pleas, give me a couple of weeks to gather all the information I said I would send you, and you'll have it there. I’m swamped in work, right now.
Feel free to e-mail me for any details about the shipping…

[fernando]

Sorry for the late reply
I thaught you were not coming back because you had enough material for you work on the Islamic crossbow, and i didn't check your recent posting.
Not that this is dramatic, as Mark's huge amount of information covers by far my humble contribution to the subject.
I have being trying for the last three days to spot again the web page about the narration of the torture inflicted to that Moor crossbowman, to insert it here for you. I don't remember whether it was in English, Spanish or Portuguese, and probably ununderstandable to you. I rather tell you here that "Historia Silense" is a sort of Epic of the Spanyards, in the period of the Reconquest of the Iberian Peninsula from the Moors.
... Eventually the quoted events in 1028 took place in cities of the Portugal region, but this was still a County, under Spanish rule, only becaming a Kingdom 1139 ...
This cronicle was written by a Spanish anonimous, eventually a Monk, around 1115, and was ( again?) edited in 1959 by Perez de Urbel and Ruiz Zorrilla, also eventually Monks.
This must be a current and acquirable book ... if ever you get it, or if you get copies of pages 189-190, i have no problem to translate them for you, or rather Mark will.
Also if you search the Web on Alfonso V de Leon, father in law of King Fernando I de Castela, you will spot several quotations, leaving no doubt that he was killed in 1028 ( some say 1027), by a bolt shot from the walls of Viseu, during its siege. This archer must be the guy that was tortured by Fernando I, whom was sieging Coimbra, some fourty miles away, and also a target in the same campaign. In pages 189-190 of the cronicle, there must be a closing link.

I have posted a reply on the Rhode Siege Illumination right after your previous question, which i recall here:

I found this illlumination by chance, in a book edited in portuguese, about piracy and corso.I later found that it is included in the written account of Guillaume Caoursin, titled " Descriptio Obsidionis Rhodiae urbis " ( circa 1490 ), an eye witness of the events, actually the vice-chancelier of the Knights siege defenders at Rhodes. It is kept at the Bibliotheque National in Paris, MS lat.6067, f. 55v.
But coming to the Turk crossbow version, you can also track, before the Ottomans Rhodes episode, already their antecessors, the Seljuks ( XI-XIII century ), had crossbowmen in their armies.

I take this chance to refine a statement i made in a previous posting, about crossbow and bow being undistinguishable in some ancient languages:

These type of texts are or come from writings of the period, and there is no misinterpretation of terminology. A bow is an "arco" ( arch ) and a crossbow is a "besta" ( beast ) or whatever subnames derived from the crossbow evolution and variations..

Amazingly the portuguese word for Beast and Crossbow is written the same way: Besta. The different sounding of the "e" makes it either be the actual Besta=Beast ( from Latin Bestia=Animal ) or Besta=Crossbow ( from Latin Ballista (( like for Balistic=Projectile throwing )).Reason why it's called Ballesta in Spanish.). Tricky situation, even for the common Portuguese.
But distinguishably a Bow is an "Arco" ( Latin Arcu - Arquu=Vault ), both in Castilian and Portuguese.

I have found meanwhile some other web sources. If i filter out something solid in them, i will post it in this thread.
Keep well.
Fernando

[Aqtai]

I got David Nicolle's "Acre 1291" last week, I was flicking through it today, when I found this:

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5576/mamlukglassflaskbritishmuseum0.jpg

According to the caption it is a "Mamluk enamelled glass flask" in the British Museum.

The same book also had this picture:
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6074/aniqfialmanjaniq8be.jpg

[fernando]

So there is a modern publication on The great siege of rhodes ... certainly with that illumination with the Turks using crossbows..


http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0820111546/026-2539810-0650017#product-details

[B.I]

i continue to be both impressed and staggered by the information uncovered on this post. none of the sources referenced are common, nor easily accessed and it shows the seriousness of the forum members.

fernando -
thank you for expanding your information. the reason i had let the post 'die out' is because we had uncovered a fair amount of information, and i was waiting for the researcher to come back from france to hand it over to him. he is very happy with the information, but jist needs 'back-up' if he is to use any of it. could be please tell me the source of your mention of the seljuks having crossbows, before the ottoman illustration.
thanks for the book link, and i will order a copy and hand it over (with an invoice!). the article marc found also referenced the crossbow with a number of spanish terms - the foot bow, the foreign bow and the complicated bow. the 'beast' is a good thing to look out for when i am picking through foreign texts to see what i am going to give in for translation.

aqtai -
this research was already started by someone, and he had found the british museum bowl and inserted it in his file. (i wasnt aware of this when i first started the post). still, a great find though and much appreciated.
also, the illumination you linked from david nicholles book is useful, even though its a seige engine. the concept is still similar and maybe this can be used in this manner. thanks.

marc -
as fernando said, a wealth of fabulous information.
i will track down the BL books next time i am there (including the french article you mentioned). it isnt easy getting things copied there, and i hope i can get the information i need without having to type it out myself (not an option - i am slow in english....but spanish!!!)
the kings chronicle in pdf is a great find and i will print it out and hand it in.
the article from the madrid university is fabulous (i think) and i have handed it in for translation. just picking out bits, it seems there is much direct information and i look forward to recieving it back in english. do you know the author?
i can easily get hold of a copy of nicholles book, as its on most of the arms libraries i use and i will chase it up. i have had some time off (playing of course) and so it will be a week or so before i can take more time off to pursue the information in places other than my computer, but i look forward to showing anything new here.
i look forward to the information you are sending (especially the frescoes - even in poor quality), when you have time. believe me, i understand how hard it is to fit in any extra research as i struggle myself.

agian, much appreciated to all.

[fernando]

Just look what i came across with:

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/harris/243/alhambra_ma25.htm

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/harris/243/alhambra_ma26.htm

It's a pitty, there's something wrong with the attachment uploader ... these pictures are great.

[fernando]

There you are

[Aqtai]

Nice pics Fernando. :)

The arabesque decoration is a bit "neutral" though, i.e. it doesn't look specifically Islamic. Do you have any more info about this fine weapon?

[Marc]

It's the Nasrid crossbow from the Archaeological Museum of Granada. Allegedly 14th - 15th c. At near 80 cm. long and 124 cm. wide, it's quite impressive, I must say...

[fernando]

If i remember well, B.I. is more interested in a determined model from a determined period, preferrably with pictures.
If the question were how soon in time did Muslims use crossbows, or how soon in time did Musliums make crossbows ( which is a different thing for the matter ), various apparently solid sources could be considered.
You have the Southern Italy Saracens, whom were not fond of the crossbow use, although their artisans used to produce them for Christian Forces:
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/saracen_archers.htm
but you also have strong traces of Muslims using Crossbow versions against Christians, namely in the Reconquest period. I will try and attach herev the scanning of part of a letter, written in Latin, by an eye witness of the Conquest of Lisbon in 1147, where the Moors were already equiped with crossbows.
I keep searching the track of the so called moorish "Cuçalarab", a light crossbow from the Reconquest period, so eficient that the Christians have copied it for their own use.
Kind regards

[fernando]

Uploaders still not cooperating ... please see next posting

[fernando]

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/fernandoviana/conquistadelisboaaosmouros.jpg

[B.I]

hi,
the nasrid crossbow is the only known example, and as marc says, it is only assumed as such, hence this post. the one in a private collection that is being researched owes its form and islamic heritage to the comparison of the nasrid piece. it is a great thing, but this question has never been directly followed through.
fernando, the last two pieces of informatipon are both great, and although neither proves that the crossbow was made and used by islamic warrior, without being directly influenced by the european version, it definately can class as ammunition that it was in use by the muslim armies.
both a great find.
i shall meet up with the researcher, and try and get the information he already has, to add to this posting, and will given in these last few pieces.
again, great work.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi,

Have a look at the illustration in Islamic Arms and Armour, edited by Robert Elgood. I know you have it, as you have shown the silver bottle on page 168. Have a look on page 31, the right side of the picture, I think I see one, maybe two crossbows – or should I put my 'glass eyes' on?

Eight to ninth century, would that be early enough?

[fernando]

Hi B.I. and all involved.
At this point we may assume the principle of the egg and the hen ... who knows which came first.
In an ultimate perrogative, we may consider that, even if we demonstrate that a determined islamic army appeared in such battle, siege, or campaign with crossbow equipment, it doesn't mean that they have produced them themselves. Or if they had, it doesn't mean they produced them with their own pattern. Or if they had, it doesn't mean their pattern was not inspired by previous christian models.
Besides the fact that not all islamized peoples were of the same origin, or leaved in same the region in the same period, nor they had the same weaponry options.
Also an old empirical saying pretends that you can never be sure that something is invented, but either reinvented, only not "publicised" or brought to practice before. Da Vincy invented the pointed bullit and the helycopter a few centuries before it was (re) invented and brought to practice. Luckily in this case we have its drawings.
In the available hipothesis, the crossbow was brought to practice by the chinese ( we ignore if the crossbow principle was discovered before ).
Then after that, whom copied whom, its something rather complex, indeed. There are muslims of many races, and christians all the same. There were bans on the crossbows made by Mohamad to muslims, but also by the Pope, made to christians. In both cases, a part of them ( not necessarily all ) ignored the ban.
It is a fact that muslims in all had a significantly lower atraction for the use ( not manufacturing ) of this weapon.
But let it be no doubt they either produced it, used it in action, and also developed their own models.Actually their intelectuals have written treatises on the subject, already in XII century.
The Arab Murdâ ben Ali (1137-1193) treatise, has largely described sofisticated crossbow variations.
Murthi ibn Ali Al Tarsusi wrote a treatise for Saladin, called "Tabsiratu Arbab Al-Albab", including descriptions and sketches of crossbow developments.
Naturally theses works were published in modern languages, surely in english. But i can trace a description of the Tarsusi drawings in a known Forum ... however the pictures are deleted, the thread is from last year:
'A crossbow used for launching naptha jars/pots'
'A circular ballista which can hold up to 4 bolts. When one is shot, the dial on the top of the wooden base turns to fire the other'
'A cavalry lance with a crossbow attached to it'
'another lance with a crossbow'
'Diagram of a buckler with a crossbow attached on the inner side of it. The bolt can be discharged with a simple lever, that will launch the bolt through a small hole in the steel sheild'
It is therefore acceptable that christians learned the crossbow use at fighting

[fernando]

the cruzades against muslems, and so brought it down south, like to the iberian peninsula, in the reconquest campaings. But they had to face the same weapon from the moors side. Potentially, in this context, the christians were the weapon replicators, and not the moors.

The "fantasia" performed by inland mahgrebian mounted moors for the tourists, using close to phony miquelet muskets, are a consequence of their ancient feasts, as they still reproduce, with the musket, the same gestuals originally performed by cavalry crossbowmen, in the XIV century.

http://equestre.leguide.ma/disciplines.cfm?id=18

There is several literature describing the corsair moors, from the mahgreb, crossbow professionals from Larache and Tetuan, that vastly atacked iberian ships on the north african coast. Famous enough to incorporate the Janisary armies:

http://www.bleublancturc.com/Turqueries/janissaires.htm

and still eficient to be required by the Egyptian Sultan, to join his army comanded by a Turk mameluck, in the great battle of Chaul, against the portuguese, in 1508.

[fernando]

In an islamic sciences exhibition propsed by UNESCO, they promote the interactive assembly of a crossbow, with the following quotation:

The crossbow
This important instrument of war was greatly developed and described in Arabic military treatises. Replicas of this war device can be made and the enclosed sheets describe the construction of a replica by one hobbyist. : http://www.unesco.org/pao/exhib/islam1.htm

In the XIV siege of Tremecén ( algeria ) the Marini Sultan received reinforcements of archers and crossbowmen from Granada, "used to siege works".
http://www.islamyal-andalus.org/control/noticia.php?id=633

Other tracks could be quoted,but i bother you no longer
kind regards
btw, with this crossbowmania, i ended up buying two beautyfull portuguese quarrels ( square sectioned bolts ), one from the XIV century and one from the XV, this one with a thicker neck, already for the steel arch model.

[fernando]

i just couldn't manage ( again ) to upload the aquarels of magrebi crossbowmen and the picture of a beautyfull cavalry crossbow, from the guard of portuguese King Dom Sebastião, beg. XVI century.


http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/fernandoviana/BESTADOMSEBASTIO.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/fernandoviana/besteiromagrebino.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/fernandoviana/BESTEIRODOMAHGREB.jpg

[fernando]

Here are Al Tarsusi drawings

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/fernandoviana/balistacircular.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/fernandoviana/bucklerwithcrossbow.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/fernandoviana/anotherlancewitharossbow.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/fernandoviana/cavalrylancewithcrossbow.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/fernandoviana/launchingnaftacrossbow.jpg