Reality check and name for sword in medieval illustration

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Author	Topic: Reality check and name for sword in medieval illustration
Lee Jones EEWRS Staff	posted 11-22-2002 06:59 Received from Michael: 1. What book is this picture from (the source)? I scanned it from "Cold steel arms" encyclopedia (by Popenko, Moskow, 1996, published in Russian). There is no reference to the sourse in the encyclopedia. 2. Is this sword really called "Norman"? What is its origin? To my opinion, it looks like a two-handed langseax with a one-edged blade and a hook on its ack. Is this a sort of a falchion? 3. What are the chronological and geographical limits? It looks like the 12th-14th centuries, West Europe. 4. Where in in Internet is it possible to find other pictures? Are discriptions provided? Are there any kind of archeological and any other confirmations (proves) of its reality? IP: Logged
justin Senior Member	posted 11-22-2002 17:37 This isnt really my area but to mee it looks like a bill,that was mounted as a sword instead of a polearm. The Normans were a French 'Germanic tribe'{I dont think they were all that Germanic but it is the best way I know of to describe them}and they lived in France and later in Britain,so a 'Norman sword' would be just describing the people that made it and not the actual name of the sword. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken. IP: Logged
Andrew EEWRS Staff	posted 11-23-2002 18:21 Interesting. I'm leaning towards some kind of falchion. However, Justin's observation of the remounted pole-arm is compelling. That hook on the back edge certainly supports that opinion. Stone's is a good source for this, I think. IP: Logged
justin Senior Member	posted 11-30-2002 09:08 As per Andrews suggestion,I took a look in Stones and on page116,bill number 9 is very similar,if you shortened the spike on the tip and removed the other 3 you would basically have this 'sword'. IP: Logged
Andrew EEWRS Staff	posted 11-30-2002 23:32 I think this is closer to the polearm located third from the left on the cover of Stone's, and again at page 511, where it is identified as a 16th century Italian Fauchard. It is even more like the 15th century French fauchard located on page 226. I really do agree with Justin: this looks like a shortened polearm. My knowledge of armor is VERY limited. However, I believe plate armor was in wide use by the 16th century. This picture looks more like a full suit of mail covered by a surcoat, which you would expect to see in the 12th through 14th centuries. However, I imagine full suits of plate were very expensive and, given the visored helm, and fauchard-style weapon, perhaps we can speculate this is a common "man-at-arms", or the 16th century equivalent of an infantry "grunt". IP: Logged
Todd Sullivan Member	posted 12-01-2002 10:08 I asked the question on the ARMA E-List to our 300 members for some input and this is what they came up with: Tim Sheetz: Hi all, The General consensus seems to be that the weapon depicted is a cut down pole arm, but it didn't quite look that way to me... The back spike on most pole-arms that I have seen is lower on the spine of the head, and the drawing makes the weapon seem a bit thicker than a pole arm blade would be... So I think it is a heavy chopping blade with the hook added to get into armor quickly. With as inventive and creative as Europe was on the topic of arms and armor, I have to think someone at least came up with the idea and made things like this. Doesn't the Maciejowski Bible have pictures of unusual chopping blades? I know the Holkham Bible has a depiction of a curved choping blade with a short back spike on it (though the grip is longer). I guess that I can't deny that it can be a cut down pole arm, but I also can't accept that it is is for sure! ;-) Last comment: I know MRL describes partisans as nothing but a short sword on a pole, but I believe that is incorrect. To my knowledge, a partizan is a spear like pole arm that has flares at the base of the spear blade - almost like little axe blades. So you have thrusting ability plus the ability to chop with strength. Thanks, Tim Patrick Valdo: If it did not have that back hook I'd say it was a falchion. It looks more like a cut down pole arm. I guess if your weapon(s) were lost or destroyed during a campaign you made due with what was available. Many of those pole arms like the partizans were little more than short swords on the end of a pole. Fabrice Cognat: Hi all people of that time (the picture looks, because of the armour and style and all to be 12th century-ish)would have called it a falchion. or even cruder a 'big knife'. but it is not a cut-down polearm...basically I can't agree with that idea, and not only with this specific example. actually - but I agree my knoweledge on the subject is quite limited - I've never seen any mention of a broken polearm re-used as a single-hand weapon - less even of a specifically cut-down polearm. And just like Tim said, we know a lot of depictions of falchion-like objects with strange designs. Fab Daniel Watson: I have, in my collection, an antique Chinese pole arm blade that was remounted as a sword. So perhaps it was not that uncommon. Daniel Cheers, Todd Sullivan www.arman northeast.com IP: Logged
justin Senior Member	posted 12-01-2002 11:38 Andrew,I somehow missed the one on the cover and you are right,it is very close to what we have here,My question is oes it look socketed to you guys or is the base of the blade an exposed part of the tang? IP: Logged
Andrew EEWRS Staff	posted 12-01-2002 13:39 Justin: You know, I'm not sure about socket vs. tang. After you mentioned that, I looked again, and am struck by the bulbous pommel. If this is a shortened pole-arm, it has likely been rehilted. This engraving is typically lacking in fine detail, but it looks socketed to me, which swings me back towards the pole-arm theory. On the other hand, if so, the socket is rather short. Hmmmmm.....O.K., here's my final opinion: It's a 12th century falchion which was altered to be mounted as a pole-arm, which was later altered to be a falchion. How's that for equivocal? IP: Logged
justin Senior Member	posted 12-01-2002 14:25 LOL,I was just thinking,it doesnt really matter either way becuase I beleive they made both socketed and 'tanged' polearms,I beleive thats why the used the steel straps down the side,it was for the ones with tangs correct? IP: Logged
Michael Member	posted 12-17-2002 04:13 Thank you for the discussion. I`m going to sum up the intermediate results: 1. This picture is probably taken from Maciejowski Bible. Where can I find the illustrations from it? 2. Western Europe, 12-13 centuries. 3. It probably depicts a unique specimen of two-handed single-edged sword (falchion) with a thick butt. It�s a strong warrior�s weapon, which, being clutched by two hands, was first of all meant for powerful cutting impacts and allowed as well to strike poking blows, to enthrall with hook and to outflank the enemy in circular path with it�s help, to strike deafening and blunt breaking impacts by a butt. 4. The form generally reminds of skramasax or langeseax, but the hook is quite unusual, that really prompts about a polearm, such as the British bill with characteristic hooks against horsemen. Therefore, it is quite possible, that it�s a blade of a polearm, hafted on a short handle. I think that the amount of such hooks (additional blades) on the bill could vary from zero up to two or three. The fact, that the weapon has no ornaments and has an ordinary wooden handle (or, probably, the tubular bone with a joint) testifies its "ignoble" origin that does not exclude its efficiency. The picture is simplified and non- dimensional, so the transition from the blade to the handle is not absolutely clear: whether it�s a rounded socket (it�s too short), or a flat and not sharpened continuation of the blade, made in order not to hurt a hand which can slide onto the blade. The similar parcel of blade (ricasso type, but one - one and a half fists / palms� width) one can find on some Eastern wide blades, having though a smooth transition to edge. Such parcel could be grabbed by a palm, when using some techniques for strengthening of the linchpin. 5. This picture confirms an ancient rule that theoretically �any short weapon should be extended, and any long one should be shortened�. It was not always realized in practice, but the origin of the major part of polearms can be easily traced according to the principle of hafting of a short blade on a pole. Examples: knife or dagger - spear, bayonet, Russion: "sovna", "palma", French: couteau de breche (couse, guisarme) " a knife for break ", Indian: "bhuj", etc.; axe - halberd; sword or sabre � Japanese : "nagamaki" (�long wrapping�) or "naginata" (�reaping sword�), Chinese �da dao� - �the big sword� etc. 6. The answer for Justin. In Europe the Scandinavians (the future Swedes, Danes, Norwegians ) were originally called Northmen or Danes (Nordmanni, Normanni, Dani). Later on this name was assigned to the territory of modern Normandy in France (after it was conquered by the Vikings). I agree, that 'Norman sword' just indicates the origin of the sword. IP: Logged
Ron Jensen Member	posted 12-17-2002 08:19 Michael, This picture is not from the Maciejowski Bible. You can find online images at these two sites: http://www.keesn.nl/mac/mac_en.htm http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/maciejowski_bible.htm Also, I would suggest the best word to describe this weapon is "glaive" glaive: n. Archaic. a sword or broadsword. [ME < OF glaive, glai < L glad(ius) sword] Websters New Unabridged Dictionary The Normans who settled in Normandy spoke French exclusively by the 11th century. So they probably applied the word "glaive" to at least a class of swords. Most of my reference works show pole arms called glaives that look very similar to this blade but are attributed to the 16th century. Since everyone seems to agree we are looking at an 12-13 century illustration this is probably an early precursor sword to the pole arm glaive. IP: Logged
justin Senior Member	posted 12-21-2002 16:51 Actually after looking thru the pics from the first link I saw many weapons that appeared to be pole arm blades on short hafts especially one that had a squared off end,it appear in one form or another in almost every pics that was supposed to have weapons in it.The second link shows this weapon in detail and calls it a godenak. [This message has been edited by justin (edited 12-21-2002).] IP: Logged
Scott Bubar Senior Member	posted 12-21-2002 19:51 Just as a point of interest, look at the carving knives in the "detail" of Folio 16 Recto--Top in Ron's first link. IP: Logged
justin Senior Member	posted 12-22-2002 08:44 Ahhhh,Indeed,they are scaled down versions of what I pointed out,maybe were onto something. What i dont understand is,what is this bible thing anyway?I knew nothing of it till it was mentioned here but so far my impression is that it is a version of the bible written in medievil europe and therefore had pictures of Europeans in everyday life,and war as it was during the time that it was written,but they were supposed to be biblical characters,correct? IP: Logged
Andrew EEWRS Staff	posted 12-23-2002 10:23 I believe this may be a "Lochaber Axe", which descended from the glaive. Stone has a timeline illustrating this descent at page 417. The final illustration (8) is nearly identical to the weapon which started this thread. IP: Logged
Ron Jensen Member	posted 12-23-2002 22:22 Justin, Essentially, yes. It's a comic book bible (mostly pictures, little text) produced in the late 13th century. The second link has a lot of good info on the book if you can read it. I have fits with that page because Netscape tends to render it black-on-black. Andrew, I have heard Stone mentioned here before. Could you post the title or ISBN number so I can track a copy down? It sounds like an interesting reference work. Thanks! If this is a "Lochaber Axe" aren't we several hundred years off on the dating? Did Lochaber Axes appear in the 12-13th centuries? IP: Logged
Andrew EEWRS Staff	posted 12-24-2002 00:12 Ron: "A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times", George Cameron Stone ISBN 0-486-40726-8 Regarding the date, you may be correct: Stone attributes this weapon to the 16th century. Perhaps my previous speculation of a 16th century "grunt" was not too far off. IP: Logged
Ron Jensen Member	posted 12-24-2002 23:37 Thanks Andrew, my copy of Stone's on order. Merry Christmas IP: Logged
Andrew EEWRS Staff	posted 12-25-2002 00:00 And to you and your's! IP: Logged
justin Senior Member	posted 12-25-2002 08:17 Indeed,Stones was my first or second book on weaponry,and I only regret that I didnt get it sooner,it is well worth the $40. IP: Logged
Lee Jones EEWRS Staff	posted 12-26-2002 17:48 Received from Michael: Thank you, Ron, for the links. 1. As to "glaive", different authors (Stone among them), consider glaive, couse, couteau de breche, guisarme, English bill, German Breschmesser, Streitsense, Glefe to be almost the same weapon - a blade of sword or knife hafted on a pole. As far as I understand, the pole can be of different length - its short version you can see in the Maciejowski Bible (images enclosed). 2. As regards the term "godenak", I've selected some fragments from the Maciejowski Bible (1-9 enclosed) and several quotations: Godenak - "Medieval Chopper". On the images from the Maciejowski Bible we can see a heavy chopping blade, having more or less marked cogs on the upper part of the butt and a moderate contracurvature of the chopping part of the blade, which was only used by common people. It slightly reminds of the Nepal sword "Kora", having a deeper contracurvature. Godenda, godendag, godendac (Stoun, p.248). A Flemish halbard of the 12th century. Godendag - Streitaxt (battle axe) (W. Boeheim. Handbuch der Waffenkunde, p. 369, pict. 437 a, b.). A Flemish weapon, descending from axe, - a sort of halbard. [This message has been edited by Lee Jones (edited 12-27-2002).] IP: Logged
Ron Jensen Member	posted 12-28-2002 11:48 This picture come from a manuscript in the British Library's Manuscript Collection. The on-line search engine is here. As near as I can tell these images are not on-line. Please correct me if I am wrong because this would be a great resource! Manuscript #47682, the "HOLKHAM BIBLE PICTURE BOOK" circ. 1327-1335. The "Battle of Berwick" Scroll down to where it says; (77) The great folk fight each other; the commoners fight each other. f. 40. This is the picture they refer to as 'the commoners fight each other'. The gentleman on the left is using a weapon much like the one pictured in the first post. IP: Logged
Jeff D Senior Member	posted 01-02-2003 22:19 Hi Michael, Your picture is an illustration by Don Pottinger. It is taken from a book "English Weapons & Warfare 449-1660" Pg 84. The authour is A.V.B. Norman (It may also have appeared in the earlier editions). It is an illustration of fourteenth Century head gear, no comment is made about the weapon nor whether it is copied from somewhere (manuscript, bible, grave stones etc) or if it is made up by him from the arms and armour known. A.V.N. Norman was master of the armouries at the tower of London, I don't think he would let his illustrator invent the weapon. It may be called a Norman sword after him or as already mentioned after the Normans. To clarify things, the Normans were named after the North men, or Norsemen (Vikings). They were a number of Scandanavian tribes which were raiding the coast of France in the late 800's and early 900's. France weakened by a number of civil wars could not mount a unified defence and in AD 911 King Charles the Simple conceded to Rollo a Norman chieftan the districts of Rouen, Lisieux, and Evreux, and they were supposed to defend the coast and to do feudal homage to the king. To make a long story short they developed a warrior-noble class which ultimately lead to the conquest of Italy from 1036-85, and Britian in 1066 (considered the last Viking raid). For what its worth I think it is a shortend pole arm as well, I recently perused "Arms and Armour of the crusading era 10-50-1350" by David Nicolle as well as any other of my books from this era and have not seen any other similar hand weapons. Well, I hope this helps. Jeff [This message has been edited by Jeff D (edited 01-03-2003).] [This message has been edited by Jeff D (edited 01-03-2003).] IP: Logged
Jeff D Senior Member	posted 01-03-2003 16:36 OOPS sorry! I was just playing with edit functions to see how they work. Jeff [This message has been edited by Jeff D (edited 01-03-2003).] IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 01-04-2003 14:45 BTW, Justin is quite correct that Eurpean polearms were tanged or socketed (though lagnets were primarily to prevent damage to the shaft). Those M. bible weapons remind me of panabas. It does seem to me that medieval European illustrators got rather imaginative in depicting foriegn troops, and that may have something to do with these blades. IP: Logged
Jeff D Senior Member	posted 01-04-2003 22:51 In David Nicolle's "Arms & Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350" he has reproduced with a line drawing a staff weapon from a mosaic at the Cathedral of Montreale Sicily. It is near identical to the one held in the top picture (except on a pole, and the hook is slightly larger). The weapon is held by one of the guards at a crucifixion scene. Nicolle calls it a "war-scythe". The painting is circa 1180-90 and was for the Norman rulers of Sicily at that time. This fits nicely with the above discussion. Jeff IP: Logged
Jeff D Senior Member	posted 01-05-2003 13:10 Hi Tom, "It does seem to me that medieval European illustrators got rather imaginative in depicting foriegn troops, and that may have something to do with these blades." This is true but I believe that the people holding those weapons where representatives of "good"(ie. the home team). They probably represent real weapons. Perhaps a early (crude) form of the Falchion? Jeff [This message has been edited by Jeff D (edited 01-05-2003).] IP: Logged
Jeff D Senior Member	posted 01-05-2003 16:26 Hi Guys I have asked Lee to post a picture from Queen Mary's Psalter. I suspect the knight on the left is Mr Pottinger's inspiration. it clearly is a hand weapon here as well. Jeff [This message has been edited by Lee Jones (edited 01-06-2003).] IP: Logged
Michael Member	posted 01-08-2003 08:27 It is splendid! Thank you very much! [This message has been edited by Michael (edited 01-10-2003).] IP: Logged
mark bru Member	posted 01-13-2003 09:43 It looks like a Falchion or unmounted pole arm to me too.Look at Stone p224 & 226 as well. IP: Logged

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