I seriously ask EEWRS staff to take position and reevaluate if I should post anymore or determine if over common sense ... ( I know the two main no no`s of the Forum : politics and religion and none are involved ).

quote:

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Originally posted by roadscholar:
Dear Mr. Fatalis,

I hardly know where to begin. I am Romani or Gypsy and I find it amazing that you actually seem to believe the ridiculous aspersions you make against my people. If you substituted African American for Romani and made these statements, you would be seen as the bigot that you obviously are and would likely be castigated severely. I would normally go over point by point and present the truth in answer to your slanders but really it is such a pack of nonesense that I will not dignify your commnets in this way. I have better things to do with my time than to duel with someone who is so obviously in need of some serious couch time. Just one or two statements of yours is enough to comment on.

You say: "They wery much preffer to be called that way in order to be confused with Romanians ..."
This is absurd. We prefer Romani because it is our name in our language and it's variants, and it has been since we left India 1000 years ago. The Romanians call us Cignay or something like that. This is not confusing to any Romanian or any Romani. What you really mean is that Romani (Gypsies) should have been able to forsee that when we got to England, the English language would make our name and the country of Romania confusing. This is obviously absurd.

You say: "The reason why you find Gypsies in such concentration in Romania is purely because our judicial system and attitude towards them was the easier to live under and Romanians threated them the nicest of all Europe ..."
This is also absurd. We were held in slavery in Romania until about 1861 or so when we were emancipated. I don't consider this nice treatment to be held in slavery. And there is a record of Prince Vlad purchasing 11,000 Romani slaves so we didn't have much choice about living in Romania. Believe me, we would have preferred not to be slaves.

I could go on but I won't. Any reasonable person can see you for exactly what you are ... a racist who perverts the facts to justify mistreatment of a subjugated people. The truth is that Romani people are no different than anyone else. This is true of humans. Any large group will be exactly like any other large group. That we have different cultural traditions, it not relevant here. Rather, it is merely superficial.

You say: "... but there should be myth busters and I am particularly put on rampage ..."
Oh, you're on a rampage, alright. But myth busting is not what I'd call it. I'd say instead that it is pure, unvarnished racism and couldn't be further from the truth. In the US, racism is considered a mental illness. Your "rampage" could also be considered "hate speech."

I anyone want to know real facts about my people, ask me.

Kushti bok,
Mengro, the Road Scholar

Mr. Fatalis wrote:

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Welcome to the forum. Interesting first post. However, while I do not pretend to share your experience and perspective, I do not believe that Smilodon intended to offend anyone.

quote:

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Originally posted by Smilodon Fatalis:
I seriously ask EEWRS staff to take position and reevaluate if I should post anymore or determine if over common sense ... ( I know the two main no no`s of the Forum : politics and religion and none are involved ).

[This message has been edited by Smilodon Fatalis (edited 07-25-2004).]

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This issue has not come up amongst the EEWRS Staff, Smilodon. Post away...

It is always best to think before engaging the keyboard .

We do kid each other in here but some peoples skin is thinner than others , keep that in mind when posting .

A gentle joke in one culture can be construed as a deadly insult in another .

I think we can all find a balance between decorum and a little kidding .

Let's have fun but not be flippant with each other , we are all here for serious discussions in our search for knowledge .

Ad hominems should not be used in discussions on this forum .
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

quote:

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Originally posted by Mare Rosu:
Mr. Andrew; Well said.
Some folks, in my opinion, are just to sensitive on the opinions of others.
I think a healthy exchange is good, as long as the folks keep it civil and not a personal attack on the other persons opinion.
EGB

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Excuse me Mare,

Too sensitive? Perhaps you'd feel differently if it were you and your people being discussed in a disparaging manner? Besides, no one asked Mr. Fatalis to be even censored, much less removed I don't think anyone would want to stop the exhange of ideas as long as they are posted respectfully. I read Road Scholar's post and found it only meant to be informative, yes, there was some offense taken as well there should be considering the post he was responding to. Still, his post did not disrespect anyone though he could have pointed out that far more crime is committed by non-Rom than Romani, even allowing for your much greater numbers. Do some Gypsies commit crimes? Of course, do some Spaniards, Englishman, Jews, and every other group commit crimes? Of course they do.
I would simply like all of you to know a Romani person and something of our true history and what we are really like. I also would like to learn here, since our association with the churi is long and an ingrained part of our culture. Since Mengro and I are apparently the ONLY Romani members
on this forum, when we see stereotypes and/or slanders we will correct them, in the spirit of fairness and understanding. I hope to learn from Mr. Fatalis and hopefully, he can learn from me too. We are all supposed to be illiterate too Mare, so here's one myth debunked.

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Originally posted by Mare Rosu:
In my humble opinion to all, for what is worth.

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I'm thinking your opinion has value, just like everyone else's.

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It is that, Mr. Fatalist is without a doubt the most prolific and knowledgeable forum member ever to post a reply to ME. I also say, again my opinion, this forum, will tell you like it is! good bad or indifferent.

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Undoubtedly.

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I am sorry if this offends anyone but I do think we need to defend one when the need arises sort of stand up and be counted sort of thing.

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Defend? Who's attacking him? I was responding to things he said about others. Never did I say he should be removed. That's kind of absurd in my opinion. He didn't do anything worthy of removal. He just has an opinion.

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If Mr. Fatalist is removed from this forum, I will say adiós also,

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Don't let the door bump you in the tail on your way out, Mr./Ms. Rosu.

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my leaving will cause no one a problem but think hard about you actions against Mr. Fatalist.

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I am sorry to see good people leave any list but by the same token, you are trying to coerse by raising the stakes. What does that say about you?

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Knives or Swords gentlemen?
Mare Rosu

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Well Mare Rosu, I haven't seen any administrator threatening to remove Mr. Fatalis, and I'm really not sure what's got into you so much. Maybe you saw something I didn't but I just think you need to calm down and let the list administrators do their jobs. It's hard enough in the best of circumstances and you're not helping make it any easier. I know; I've run groups, BBSs, and mailing lists since 1982.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mare Rosu:
Mr. Andrew; Well said.
Some folks, in my opinion, are just to sensitive on the opinions of others.
I think a healthy exchange is good, as long as the folks keep it civil and not a personal attack on the other persons opinion.
EGB

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Hmmm Mr./Ms. Rosu, personal attack? I just don't get it. The only rather-shrill response I have seen here are your references to being oversensitive and your threats to leave. Please try to calm yourself. No one is attacking Mr. Fatalis (or you) and his response was quite polite.

Kushti bok,
Mengro, the Road Scholar

quote:

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Originally posted by Smilodon Fatalis:
I guess I should retire forever... I just realised this is the fourth person in two days that tells me what a monster I am and therefore it must be some truth on it ... I guess I might just found the real reason why the sabertooth cats are extinct today...

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Well Mr. Fatalis, I certainly commend you for having the willingness to reexamine your position and to admit any errors you find. That is really the sign of a person with an open mind. The fact that you did make some errors only reflects perhaps your perspective and since we are all human, surely none of us is above making mistakes. Since you are from Eastern Europe where the subjugation of Romanies still continues today and the justification for it is widely heard, perhaps the problem is that you're culture has given you a skewed perspective. Let's see if we can reexamine some of these points together.

quote:

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MEA CULPA:
Tsigani of Eastern Europe might not be exactly the Western Gitanos just like there is much difference between Eastern Europe and Western Europe ...

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Well, all people are just alike when you get enough of them and certainly millions are enough to see this but certainly there will be cultural differences and further those differences will be expressed differently because of the different cultural environment they are in. The current racism of Eastern Europe might be somewhat similar to the racism of the Southern states in the US during the days of black slavery, so I think I know a bit about it, being an American myself and of course a Romani (Gypsy) as well.

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The regretfull analogies between both ethnicities were :
1. Minorities formerly subdued in enslavement until modern era.

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Yes, my people spent 500 years in slavery in Romania. Surely, any reasonable person can understand that alone would create an us-against-them attitude in any such enslaved population. So, with any such attitude that is found, the responsibility for it is at least equally that of the opressors and it will take a lot of education to undo any of the damage. So far, Romanians seem as a group unwilling to admit their roll in the situation. They say it is because we behave so badly that they are forced to mistreat us. Of course, that's absurd but let's not belabor the point.

quote:

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2. Crime rate highest existing, including theft and murder.

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This really seems to be a "social-class" phenomenon. In all societies, the lower classes are found guilty where the upper, ruling classes can do similar things without even being frowned upon, often a wink and a chuckle is the rule. Just take stealing. When a white person in the US for example sells a car to someone at a dealership and helps the buyer fudge the paperwork to get approved for a loan they surely can't pay, it's considered "good salesmanship" and often meets with a wink and a chuckle in the car dealers back rooms. I know, I once worked in sales. However, if a Romani or even any street person picks someone's pocket for $10, well then they are "Gypsy criminals." And there are a million other similar examples, so I won't belabor that point either. I can support it further if needed but I'll spare everyone, otherwise.

quote:

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3. While most succesful entertainers a good part of music, fashion and culture, specially music, at least a good part based on openly ,,praising,, outlaw behaviour.
It is sad but true : any experienced lawyer, policeman or statistics can be consulted.

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You might be surprised to learn that most of us find this just as shocking as you do. Most people seem not to realize that by far most Gypsies are unseen and unnoticed and the ones you see may be Romani at all. Many people pretend to be Rom for various reasons and many others are called Rom when they are not. The vast majority of my people are law-abiding citizens, just like your people are. Do we consider all whites to be mass murders because Hitler and Stalin were? After all, together, they ordered the murder of about 40,000,000 people.

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Personal opinion : too many people confuse Roma (Gypsy) with Romanians,

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This is a problem of education or the lack of it on the part of the person who is confused, in my view.

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there was never a Gypsy guard corps of Vlad the Impaler,

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I dunno, realy. If you bought 11,000 slaves and had them forcably transported to your country, would you then trust them to protect you? It doesn't seem reasonable to me.

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Gypsy have no specifically ethnic weaponry or distinctive martial arts,

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I read Dracula and I don't recall any claims of martial arts. Are you talking about some movie version? If so, directors normally use MUCH literary license.

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Bram Stoker is pure fictionist,there is nothing wrong with any human being born any certain way.
I am nor a bygot or a racist otherwise you woul`ve never find me kissing with pure affection a Gypsy woman if I was one or playing soccer when a kid in a mainly Tsigani team ...

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Ok, I accept that. But your words previously sounded racist so I can only assume you're human and fallable. No problem. I am fallable too.

quote:

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same time personally I almost got killed by Gypsies living in my neighbourhood after asking a family to stop poisoning our dogs in order to break in our houses, its a strange paradox ...

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This is complicated and a single incident. It likely doesn't mean the whole race would follow the same course ... unless of course you deserved it. (wink)

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My sympathy, respect and condoleances to all the suffering the Gypsies had to endure along the timeline like many other nations American Natives, Afro Americans, Jews, Russians, Cambodians, Chinese or
even my owns and this nor my oil nor my vinegar for your wounds, it is my opinion solely.

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Thanks, Mr. Fatalis, for being a bit more open minded that I had given you credit for.

quote:

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P.S. A bit of ironical to my accuses of being bygot towards Gypsy look into the posting ,,My first TALWAR,, for almost an ode to the Punjabi (otherwise accepted as being the birthplace of Gypsy people ), very animate too...

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I'll look for this.

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With the risk of playing the devil`s advocate some questions in theme however remain as you invited to be asked in order to find the truth:
Was it ever a country where Gypsies had since started being nomad or were they ever had form of government or a ruler anywhere that represent them as whole ?

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This is controversial amongst the experts and the truth is that no one knows. Our legends tell us that we once knew power in this sense and that it corrupted us, like it always does to people in power, so we abandoned it and returned to a more simple but "honest" life of roaming. The odd thing here is how little the opressing culture understands what they honestly deserve and what they have stolen. "Might makes right," they say and unfortunately the opressing culture usually believes that. There are many among who claim that we did not become a people until we got to Europe but some think our history goes back much further than the Punjab. Some feel we had traveled the East/West route for eons. How many people know that President Bill Clinton was half Romnai? So there have been many powerful Romanis even in modern times but most Romanies do not advertise their ancestry to non-Romani people.

quote:

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Did they ever had an army or a offensive/defensive organization that carried a battle ?

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Well, we have belonged to every military force in the world and usually have fought bravely.

quote:

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Are there any Gypsy distinct martial arts ?
Are there any Gypsy arms and armour ?

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Well, I don't know of any specifically our but like I said, we are in every country in the world, in every culture, hold every religion, in every military, so I'm quite sure we have had our share of fighting knowledge but specific to us? I don't know of any. surely, if there is some secret tradition amongst a group, I'm not aware of it.

quote:

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I seriously ask EEWRS staff to take position and reevaluate if I should post anymore or determine if over common sense ... ( I know the two main no no`s of the Forum : politics and religion and none are involved ).

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Gosh, don't be absurd. we have both expressed our opinions. If you wish to further explore how commonly-held negative attitudes towards any group is likely the result of prejudice and usually quite unfair and wrong, then we can do so, but this is a knife forum. Let's talk knives.

[This message has been edited by VANDOO (edited 07-28-2004).]

quote:

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Originally posted by roadscholar:
...but this is a knife forum. Let's talk knives.

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I agree! (However, we like to talk about swords around here, as well. ).

Welcome to you as well, Ileigha.

Now that we have two Romani members on the forum, will someone give us an explanation of the "Gypsy" knife arts if, indeed, such an art exists?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer roadscholar :
"Well, I don't know of any specifically our but like I said, we are in every country in the world, in every culture, hold every religion, in every military, so I'm quite sure we have had our share of fighting knowledge but specific to us? I don't know of any. surely, if there is some secret tradition amongst a group, I'm not aware of it. "

I believe these questions have already been adressed in the above quoted post .

quote:

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Originally posted by VANDOO:
THERE ARE MANY PHLOSOPYS IN THIS WORLD AND MANY DIFFERENT GROUPS. SOME HAVE GAINED BAD REPUTATIONS BECAUSE OF THEIR BEHAVIOR OR BELIEFS, SOME HAVE ALSO BEEN LIED ABOUT BY THEIR ENEMYS AND GAINED A UNDERSERVED BAD REPUTATION. THESE REPUTATIONS CAN CARRY ON AND GROW UNTIL THEY ARE WAY OUT OF PROPORTION TO WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN THE PAST.

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This is true but sadly, it is also occuring in the present as well and will undoubtedly happen in the future.

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I KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT GYPSYS OTHER THAN WHAT YOU SEE IN MOVIES WHICH IS NOT TO BE BELIEVED. THE FEW ACTUAL ENCOUNTERS I HAVE HAD HAVE BEEN UNFORTUNATELY BAD #1 A OLD FRIEND A LADY FROM LATVIA 96 YEARS OLD IN 1968 TOLD ME HOW THE GYPSYS HAD STOLDEN THE FAMILYS HORSE WHEN SHE WAS A YOUNG GIRL WHICH CAUSED THEM A LOT OF HARDSHIP.

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My aunt once had their horse stolen by a Gadje (non-Rom), and it caused them a lot of hardship.

quote:

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#2 A GROUP OF GYPSYS STAYED IN SAND SPRINGS OKLA. IN THE EARLY 1960'S AND WERE CAUGHT SHOPLIFTING AN AMAZEING AMOUNT OF GOODS.

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Gadje kids and adults here have been caught shoplifting an amazing amount of goods.

quote:

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# THE GYPSY CHILDREN IN PARIS FRANCE HAD A SCAM FOR SURROUNDING TOURISTS AND PICKING THEIR POCKETS AND WERE ALWAYS RELEASED BECAUSE THEY WERE CHILDREN, I PERSONALLY GOT TO EXPERIENCE THIS AND THE POLICE WERE VERY AWARE OF THE PROBLEM BUT UNABLE TO STOP IT.IT WOULD BE EASY TO COME UP WITH A LOT MORE PROBLEMS I HAVE HAD WITH OTHER GROUPS, BUT ALSO LOTS OF GOOD THINGS ALSO. GYPSYS ARE RARE AROUND HERE SO I HAVEN'T HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO KNOW ANY MORE ABOUT THEM GOOD OR BAD.

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Gadje kids have been arrested for pickpocketing and were part of organized pickpocket rings. Some cases that have been written about where the police told reporters that the criminals were Gypsies have actually turned out to be Gadje. When you looked at Bill Clinton, did you know he was "Gypsy?" Or perhaps I should say, "half-Gypsy." My point is, you just don't really know who are Gypsies unless they tell you and then you don't know if they're lying. As to Gypsy crime, there has never been a Hitler or a Stalin who was Rom so you guys have us beat on the mass-murder score, anyway. In fact, it is EXTREMELY rare for a Romani to kill anyone except in devensive fighting or commit crimes such as rape. There are cultural reasons for this--we don't allow it. People who do this are rejected by us. It is taboo.

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I CAN'T SAY THAT GYPSYS ARE ALL BAD BASED ON THOSE 3 FACTS, AS WAS STATED EARLIER THERE ARE CRIMINALS AMONG ALL GROUPS AND RACES.I PUT DOWN THESE 3 ITEMS TO SHOW HOW LITTLE I KNOW AND TO SHOW WHY I WOULD BE SUSPICIOUS OF A GYPSY AROUND MY HOUSE, NOT TO ATTACK ANY PERSON OR GROUP.I HAVE NOTHING AGINST ANY GROUP OR RACE UNLESS THEY ARE A THREAT TO ME,MY FAMILY OR COUNTRY.

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Funny, I am suspicious of anyone being where they don't belong around my house. After all, by sheer numbers alone, Gadje *criminals* far outnumber the total number of Romanies in the world today, criminals or not.

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AS TO BEING A BIGOT OR RACIST HERE IN AMERICA IT SEEMS TO BE WIDELY BELIEVED THAT THE ONLY RACE OR SEX THAT CAN BE ONE IS THE WHITE MALE.

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I'm a white male, just like you.

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YET ANOTHER FALLICY SUPPORTED BY THE PRESS AND POLITICAL CORRECTNESS, THERE ARE RACISTS AND BIGOTS AMONG ALL RACES.THE ATTITUDE THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO PLAY BY THE RULES OR CONFORM TO THE MORALS AND LAWS OF A SOCIETY HAS A PRICE AND WILL ISOLATE THAT GROUP FROM THE MAINSTREAM AND LIMIT THIER OPPORTUNITYS TO ADVANCE IN THAT SOCIETY. THIS IS A CHOICE MADE BY THAT INDIVIDUAL OR GROUP THE RESULTING PROBLEMS AND LACK OF SUCESS CANNOT BE LOGICALLY BLAMED ON THE SOCIETY AND ITS RULES AND CALLED DISCRIMINATION.EACH PERSON HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISIONS TO BREAK OR OBEY THE LAW OR PRACTICE STRANGE BELIEFS OR CEREMONYS OR COSTUME

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The overwhelming majority of Romanies in the world are law-abiding citizens. Why do you assume otherwise? And you blame bringing these facts to people's attention to be "political correctness?" It used to be called be a moral, decent person--just ask your pastor or priest.

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BUT I AM NOT A BIGOT BECAUSE I WOULDN'T WANT THEM AS A NEGHBOR, EMPLOYEE OR SON IN LAW.

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Isn't that like BIG SHRIMP? An oxymoron? Don't your words themselves belie your assertions of non-prejudice?

quote:

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I AM ALSO SURE THAT SUCH A PERSON OR GROUP WOULDN'T WANT ME AS A MEMBER AS I REFUSED TO CONFORM TO THEIR GROUPS WAYS AND BELIEFS,

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In fact, I value diversity.

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THAT DOSEN'T MAKE THEM BIGOTS EITHER. I AM FRIENDLY BUT WARY OF ANY STRANGER

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Me too but it has nothig to do with the imagined qualities of the group they appear to be members of. One time a Bible salesman turned out to be a rapist. I'm pretty sure he was Gadje, since we just don't do stuff like that.

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UNTIL I GET TO KNOW THEM ESPECIALLY IF I AM OUT OF MY TERRITORY AND IN THEIRS. I THINK THAT IS BEING PRUDENT AND A SIGN OF INTELLEGENCE NOT RACEISM. THESE ARE MY THOUGHTS ON IT AND YOU CAN LABEL ME WHATEVER YOU LIKE

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Like I said above, your words themselves reveal your character. I really don't need to say a thing to any thinking person.

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IT DOSEN'T CAUSE ME A PROBLEM BUT LABELS CAN PREVENT UNDERSTANDING AND PEOPLE WHO COULD BE FRIENDS CAN ALWAYS REMAIN IN CONFLICT. PEOPLE WILL HAVE MANY DIFFERENCES BUT WILL STILL HAVE THINGS IN COMMON, HERE ON THE FORUM WE USUALLY STAY AWAY FROM THE DIFFERENCES AND CONCENTRATE ON THE THINGS WE HAVE IN COMMON, WERE NOT MUCH INTERESTED IN THE DIFFERENCES ANYWAY .
NOW LETS SMOOTH DOWN ALL THE RUFFLED FEATHERS

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Well my feathers we not ruffled in the slightest. I merely answered the false assertions of others, but where were your call for forbearance when anti-Romani remarks were being made?

quote:

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AND TALK ABOUT WEAPONS AND COOL STUFF.[/B]

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Yes, let's do so. Please.

How many of you make knives? I like to use old files or similar tool steel without any chrome content. I don't like stainless. I always make sheath knives, not folders. How many make the sheaths? Do you go for utilitarian knives or fantasy knives with lots of spines and useless things to make it look "scary." I'm just practical by nature.

Kushti bok,
Mengro, the Road Scholar

Gentlemen , this has gone quite far enough !

I should like very much to correspond with you. As soon as I figure out how to get my email addy to you with out posting it publically I shall do so. Perhaps one of the moderators could give it to you as they have yours and can communicate mine to you without public disclosure? If so, the moderators have my permission to do so.

Baxt hai sastimos tiri patragi Mr. Fatalis,
Ileigha

quote:

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Originally posted by Smilodon Fatalis:
Would you mind listing an e-mail address for contact Ileigha ?
Avelo baxtalo !

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You were close lol, I knew what you meant, for everyone else, Smilodon and I have wished each other good luck, which in Romani language has more of a "karma" connotation than just the English word luck. I shall look forward to hearing about the document to which you refer Smilodon, I'm sure it will be fasinating.

As to martial arts specifically Romani, none that I know of (is that "philosophically direct enough But we have served in Armies from Asia, to the Americas, to Africa. Most Rom I know would rather avoid a fight, but once in one, they do not play. In general though, the old, Romani, adage; mashkar le gadjende leski shib si le Romeneski zor (surrounded by the Gadje, the Rom's only defense is his tongue.) The weapon of choice of ALL the Rom I have ever known is the churi. This preference for the churi cuts across all the different Romani nations, from the Gitanos of Spain, to the Roma of Eastern Europe, the Americas and everywhere else. A Rom (man) without a churi is considered "strange" almost unclothed as it were. Many romani (women) are excellent with the churi as well. Blacksmithing tools, sissors, anything handy will do in a pinch, this I suspect is true of anyone who feels threatened and doesn't happen to have a shotgun handy

Baxt hai tiri patragi (wishing good health and good luck/karma)

Ileigha

quote:

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Originally posted by Smilodon Fatalis:
Hey Tom welcome back , I missed your postings... yes I know about profile but he`s address is not listed inside anyway here is mine : letmegolimbing@yahoo.com ...
Hehe Ileigha... how is that ,,avelo baxtalo,, for a bygot ... I hope I wrote it corectly, thats what all Tziganii I know always said to me when leaving ... as far as I am concerned I burried war hatchets if they ever existed ... I might be able to help you in your research (aside from knifes by the way) anyway i`ll tell you more when you drop a line... you and I could have interesting conversations in private...
Besides that very soon I will eventually be in the posesion of an early 19th century document that might be worth its weight in gold in your quest ...

[This message has been edited by Smilodon Fatalis (edited 07-26-2004).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ileigha:
As to martial arts specifically Romani, none that I know of (is that "philosophically direct enough But we have served in Armies from Asia, to the Americas, to Africa. Most Rom I know would rather avoid a fight, but once in one, they do not play. In general though, the old, Romani, adage; mashkar le gadjende leski shib si le Romeneski zor (surrounded by the Gadje, the Rom's only defense is his tongue.) The weapon of choice of ALL the Rom I have ever known is the churi. This preference for the churi cuts across all the different Romani nations, from the Gitanos of Spain, to the Roma of Eastern Europe, the Americas and everywhere else. A Rom (man) without a churi is considered "strange" almost unclothed as it were. Many romani (women) are excellent with the churi as well. Blacksmithing tools, sissors, anything handy will do in a pinch, this I suspect is true of anyone who feels threatened and doesn't happen to have a shotgun handy

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quote:

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Ileigha wrote:
The weapon of choice of ALL the Rom I have ever known is the churi. This preference for the churi cuts across all the different Romani nations, from the Gitanos of Spain, to the Roma of Eastern Europe, the Americas and everywhere else. A Rom (man) without a churi is considered "strange" almost unclothed as it were. Many romani (women) are excellent with the churi as well.

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I would really like to hear your answer about my last post. I am sorry to be insistent, but any information about the "churi" use by Romani people is important to me.

I as talking to my teacher today about this forum and this thread and told him that I found a Rom here and I got no clue about any martial art cultivated by Roms. He wrote down something in Romani and told me to send it to you:

quote:

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Diogo Emiliano wrote:

"Sar san romale tchavale, me sen o Diogo Emiliano, Rom, Boiasä (Kaldarash). Me beshau ando Brasil, kate me kerau sabia, tovar, shurí, aj vi munrri familia si kahtar rumania, so, me sem ecrimanoush*!"

"So, te del odel tu aviles ando Brasil, si but prhal kate"

* ecrimanoush = gypsy warrior

"Te aves bahrtalô, but bach, taj sunacai aj sastimos, pala tute aj tire familia"

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For those that don't know Romani, it basically says his name and family name and origin, that he is living in Brasil. It also says that he forges swords, axes and daggers. He also entitles himself as a "ecrimanoush" (gypsy warrior).

Ileigha, he also asked you to visit to his site at http://www.cuteleiro.com/. It has a portuguese and a Romani version.

Cheers,
Luiz Guilherme

Sorry I'm so late and lame in answering but I have an "excuse" of course lol. Responded to your request to write off list and never heard back so I presumed you either hadn't read it or were no longer interested.

Now, to your questions. Keep in mind Luiz, I can only speak from my personal experiences and that of my familia and friends. Yes, my brothers and all the chavvies (children, males at any rate) we knew grew up in the presence of the churi. They learned the use and care of same by observation from birth almost. In our culture Luiz, chavvies participate in everyday life with the adults, as much or as little as they care to. This is how our chavvies learn their trades and things like the use of the churi. My brothers were instructed seriously in churi use as soon as they were of an age to need to know such things. The chavos (boys) would often practice with the churis (blunted ones at first) while the rom supervised and advised, these activities were not open the sheys (girls) but some of the elder romni (women) also taught the girls churi use. I myself learned informally from my phrala (brothers.) I learned to use a short, usually, 2-4 inch blade as mo phrala felt any use of mine would be in close quarters for defense with slashing being the main stroke.

I also have an idea for you Luiz, which would put you in touch with a rom who is no doubt a Gypsy Warrior. I will talk to you off list about this as I feel obligated to protect his privacy. He insists that yes, there ARE Romani warriors and weapons.

To your teacher: Droboy tume Romale mo phral! Me som de Kaja shey, de Nanushti de Malaga. Baxt hai sastimos tiri patragi mo phral! Ashen Devlesa. Tiro phena, Ileigha.

Translation: I have told the rom who I am, who my familia is and where we are from. I have wished him good health and good karma and blessed him.

Let me know Luiz if you got my off list post. Will send you info about getting to know some ecrimanoush.

Baxt,
Ileigha

quote:

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Originally posted by Luiz:
Ileigha,

I would really like to hear your answer about my last post. I am sorry to be insistent, but any information about the "churi" use by Romani people is important to me.

I as talking to my teacher today about this forum and this thread and told him that I found a Rom here and I got no clue about any martial art cultivated by Roms. He wrote down something in Romani and told me to send it to you:

For those that don't know Romani, it basically says his name and family name and origin, that he is living in Brasil. It also says that he forges swords, axes and daggers. He also entitles himself as a "ecrimanoush" (gypsy warrior).

Ileigha, he also asked you to visit to his site at http://www.cuteleiro.com/. It has a portuguese and a Romani version.

Cheers,
Luiz Guilherme

[This message has been edited by Luiz (edited 07-31-2004).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ileigha:
Let me know Luiz if you got my off list post. Will send you info about getting to know some ecrimanoush.

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Hey. Thank you for the answers.
Now you said, I found your e-mail on my "deleted itens" folder. It was classified as spam :P I fixed that.

Yes, I am still very interested. As I said, ANY information will be really welcome.

I will not only forward your message to my teacher but print this entire topic AND your topic about "Navajas and Gypsies". I will get his opinion about your questions and post it next weekend.

I can't wait to hear from your ecrimanouch friend and learn more about "Romani warriors and weapons".

Once more, thx for your interest in helping me.

I've red that you are from Brazil, may you can help me : I've heard about Cangaceiro knife fighting methods but I couldn't find out more about this style. I thought that you brazilian people maybe know a little more about it, that you could tell me...

here is a URL that may be of interest:

http://arma.lh.pl/zrodla/treningi/pdf/silverdagger.pdf

Hi Swiss-Chris,

quote:

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Originally posted by swiss-chris:
Olá Luiz ,

I've red that you are from Brazil, may you can help me : I've heard about Cangaceiro knife fighting methods but I couldn't find out more about this style. I thought that you brazilian people maybe know a little more about it, that you could tell me...

obrigado e adeus

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I am looking forward to Luiz's reply to this, as I too long have been fascinated by the Brazilian verison of that great Latin American dispute resolution procedure . Unfortunately I do not speak Portugese, so I have to rely on others to enlighten me.

However, if you can read Spanish, you may find this Argentinian book interesting:

Esgrima Criolla by Mario A.Lopez Osornio.

It was written in 1943 and is now out of print, though you could get a second hand copy from any of a number of Buenos Aires bookshops. It is very informative, though I have number of reservations about the work (I nearly always have when it comes to this subject).

The Argentinians have elevated the dubious institution of knife dueling to a place of honour in their national culture and their views on the matter are certainly worthy of some consideration by the serious student.

I should add, that just about every work in Spanish, that I have read on this subject, has been sourced from the good senor Osornio's book.

Cheers
Chris

[This message has been edited by Evans Chris (edited 08-05-2004).]

Oh that sounds great. I'll be in Buenos Aires in October for 5 day and than move one to Chile for 2 months. I hope to find this book in Argentina and maybe I can also learn a little more about the corvo chileno.

Gracias y hasta luego
Chris

"I am reminded of a large ranch out in the country, on the banks of the Samborombon river, where there lived a dirt poor ranch hand, far along in years, who, owning nothing of material value to leave to his close friend and Godson, thought to bequeth him all of his knife fighting knowledge. It was the one unique thing- by far the greatest thing- that the old man possessed in this life- namely, an extraordinary knifefighting skill. The knife, to him, represented the Key to Justice for the poor man, all the more so the poorer he is.

The rich man wants for nothing. Whatever he may need comes easily to him wherever he may roam, including Justice for wrongs done against him. The down-and-out man, on the other hand, if he is unable to defend himself, becomes like the weakest steer in a herd, set upon by every predator. So, for this reason, the old man set out to give his Godson lessons in la esgrima criolla.

They began with wooden trainers, like in the case of so many other reknowned Argentine knifefighters, and ended with live blades- the same blades that they used in their daily chores, and wore proudly on their belts when out on the town on Sunday.

They first laid out an arena. that is, they cut precise lines in the ground to delineate the field of battle, and after teaching his student how to handle a knife properly in battle, the man began to teach him "la corpieda". By that, I mean the ability of evading the opponent's blade, without retreating or turning away from the opponent, so that his strikes cut nothing but air.

Not a bad translation, if I may say so - Did you do it?

Cheers
Chris

I'm ashamed to say, but I found it on the web . Nevertheless spanish is my native language. Can you recomend me a good bookshop in Buenos Aires ?

Adios

1. Donde amigo? donde.... (where did you find that?)

2. Just a general note on Esgrima Criolla: The author was an academic and writer and not a fighter - Argentinian literature is full of academics and high class writers who wrote on knives and eulogized the way of the gaucho, Jorge Borges, Jose Hernandes and Gutierrez coming to mind most readily. Unfortunately what most of these good folks wrote was pure fanatsy based on popular tales and legends, a bit like the writings of Zane Gray on the Wild West of America.

Osornio, made a good attempt at describing the old gaucho ways, but relying on tales and the literary work of others, such as Hernandez, to my mind, he got an awful lot wrong, in a technical sense, and his book must be read with that caveat. My personal conclusion, after some years of investigating this subject, is that those who can write don't fight and those who do fight with knives (for real) do not write.

As for a bookshop: Try http://www.lsf.com.ar/

There is a search service in Argentina that will tryy all their used-book shops, but unfortunately I have lost the URL.
Cheers
Chris (Aussie )

quote:

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Originally posted by swiss-chris:
Hi Chris

I'm ashamed to say, but I found it on the web . Nevertheless spanish is my native language. Can you recomend me a good bookshop in Buenos Aires ?

Adios

Chris

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[This message has been edited by Evans Chris (edited 08-08-2004).]

Lo copie de esta página web http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/weapons/ecstory.html

Thank you for those fantastic informations, I'll write about my trip to Argentina when I'm in Chile ( I hope my family has a better internet conection since my last visit )

Saludos

Have a great stay in Argentina and Chile. I must confess that my stay in Chile was limited to 4hrs in Puenta Arenas, when the jolly plane had to undergo emergency repairs before flying back to Oz (Australia).

Re your post: The translator omitted that the teacher of the young man was a negro... (In the old days Argentina had a lot of negro ex-slaves who disappered with hardly a trace by WWI, but that is another story)

Something that may be of general interest to other forumites is what Osornio wrote on pg 52:

"... Sabemos que no tuvo otros maestros que sus propios companeros deseosos como el de aprender la esgrima de las armas blancas, sin mas artes que la intuicion de cada cual ni mas cartilla que su natural destreza...."

A loose translation of the above reads:

"...We know that he (the gaucho) had no other teachers than his mates who were as eager as him to master cut & thrust weapons, nor did he have skills and text books other than provided by his intuition and natural agility...."

The above supports my contention that regardless of claims made every now and then, of someone discovering an esoteric Hispanic martial art, it was all very simple and informal, though not without subtlety, replicating old sword play with knife and cape - All without prescribed complex techniques, which in any event are impossible or impractical with a knife. What was being taught is not how to fence with knives but rather how to fight an opponent armed with a knife, in most cases only to save face and in a very few, to kill.

Cheers y saludos cordiales
Chris (El Australiano )

As far as sheer logic goes, I think that you are correct - The absence of evidence does not mean that something does not exist. However, in such case I put the onus of proof on those who claim that something unsubstantiated does exist.

In any event, for us the discussion, let alone a debate, of this topic is fraught with difficulties because the bulk of the literature remains untranslated into English.

As for renaissance dagger play, it is well to remember that many of those weapons were very long, some with 20" blades and, especially the Spanish, had comprehensive handguards - So what could be done with them cannot be extrapolated without some reservations onto later knives; Alfred Hutton did some work on this in his book Cold Steel.

Cheers
Chris

quote:

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Originally posted by tom hyle:
Hmm...First he had no teacher but his mates, but next "nor did he have [any] skills or text books other than provided by his intuition and natural agility" what happened to his mates? And for that matter his family? What do books have to do with it? Nothing; a thing not being written down isn't evidence of its nonexistence, even in a highly literate culture. First, he's been taught by improper teachers; next sentence it's expanded to he hasn't been taught at all. The idea that written, Westernized, stratified, etc. information and skills are the only ones with meaningful existence does not stand.
I will add that the way Silver makes sure to advise against parrying with a dagger, and how to respond to it, is HIGHLY suggestive of the common-ness of such action, with which I am familiar at a folk level, anyway; people do definitely train in parrying with daggers, and, yes, even knives; therefore, by difinition, there are what are commonly called martial arts around the subject. Their relative effectiveness and our opinions on it is entirely irrelevent to its existence.

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[This message has been edited by Evans Chris (edited 08-09-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Evans Chris (edited 08-09-2004).]