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Author Topic:   traditional biotechnology
tom hyle
Senior Member
posted 05-21-2003 14:05     Click Here to See the Profile for tom hyle   Click Here to Email tom hyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I recently came across a description of a traditional European technique called "copicing", which is the pruning, etc. of trees (mostly ash) so that instead of growing a big bole they grow a ring of small straight trunks, which are used for tool handles. Now, I have read of medieval west-Germanic ("viking") spears (at least the better ones) that the handles were made from riven (split) heart-wood from straight adult trees of the sort that frow in climax forest, but I wonder if copice-made shafts weren't used sometimes, too.

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Wyvern
Member
posted 05-22-2003 11:17     Click Here to See the Profile for Wyvern     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe you could be correct. You brought back quite a few memories when you made the post. I'm most familiar with the use of coppicing for managing stands of hazel (filbert) - but it can also be used for ash. Ash would seem to have all the properties you would want for a Spear shaft.

Try the URL below - this is the web site of the Royal Forestry Society - I have included three short extracts also for quick reading:

http://www.rfs.org.uk/thirdlevel.asp?ThirdLevel=164&SecondLevel=33

"The English name ash is derived from aesc the Anglo-Saxon name for a spear, once a common use for 'ground ash' as young slender saplings were called."

and

"Ash coppices freely if felled before maturity.The quick grown poles are valued for such purposes as tool handles."

and

"If a wood is required to take a shock or a strain and absorb it smoothly without risk of fracture, ash is the best choice."

A general site on coppicing can be found at:

http://www.coppice.org.uk/background.htm

I hope this is of help.

[This message has been edited by Wyvern (edited 05-22-2003).]

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justin
Senior Member
posted 05-22-2003 11:43     Click Here to See the Profile for justin   Click Here to Email justin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They did this for many things,they found a buried 'boardwalk' I believe it was right by Stonehenge,and the stakes they used for it were grown in this way.I have also heard that the 'Vikings' used to bend saplings so that they would grow to a specific shape and later when they were big enough they were cut and used for particular parts on their ships.

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Andrew
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-22-2003 17:34     Click Here to See the Profile for Andrew   Click Here to Email Andrew     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a bit off-topic, but some of you (Justin and Mike, in particular) may be familiar with Florida Live Oak (Quercus virginiana ). This variety of oak is prevalent throughout the state (esp. South Florida) and the Southern U.S.

Legend has it that, due to the characteristic natural curve of the main trunk and primary branches of this tree, it was prized by shipwrights as far back as the early Spanish explorers, who were pleased to discover an indiginous source of naturally curved lumber for ship staves.

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justin
Senior Member
posted 05-22-2003 19:19     Click Here to See the Profile for justin   Click Here to Email justin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am especially familiar with it,they are everywhere down here,infact there is one not to far from my house thats around 350-400 years old!I could defintaely see them as being used for ships.

This makes a lot of since as yesterday Mike and I were discussing upper Tampa Bay,there is a section of upper Tampa Bay that is called Safety Harbor' and evidentally that goes back all the way to Spaniards and pirates who would bring their ships there for repair and to keep them from being destroyed in storms and hurricanes.Coincidentally this area is also filled with very large and very old live oaks.....

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Jim McDougall
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-22-2003 21:11     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim McDougall   Click Here to Email Jim McDougall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tom,
This is really a fascinating and seldom addressed topic in the study of arms, the botanical factor!
In reading this it is interesting to note that certain weapons are named or termed for the wood used in thier construction. It seems that the Zulu 'assegai' is so termed with relation to the term for a South African tree (curtisia dentata), with the term assagai apparantly meaning spear or lance for the wood used.
The medieval dagger termed a 'dudgeon dagger' is so called for the boxwood root (also called dudgeon wood) for the grips of the dagger. The root (no pun intended) of the term is apparantly Welsh 'dygon', meaning malice.

There are certainly many others especially in the unstudied annals of ethnographic weapons over countless years of cultural diffusion.

I really like the expansion of perspective these topics apply to the study of weapons! Outstanding example!

Best regards, Jim

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Jeff D
Senior Member
posted 05-22-2003 21:43     Click Here to See the Profile for Jeff D   Click Here to Email Jeff D     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
'The medieval dagger termed a 'dudgeon dagger' is so called for the boxwood root (also called dudgeon wood) for the grips of the dagger. The root (no pun intended) of the term is apparantly Welsh 'dygon', meaning malice.'

"Is this a dagger which I see before me with the dudgeon toward my hand, come let me clutch thee"

I always wondered where W.S. got that term.
Thanks Jim

Jeff

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Wyvern
Member
posted 05-23-2003 09:33     Click Here to See the Profile for Wyvern     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

A couple of questions on word origins.

First, I thought that Assegai was derived from "Azagaia" - which is Portuguese for spear. Mozambique, of course, was a Portuguese colony for centuries, which would explain the term coming into use in Southern Africa. It is possible that this word arrived in the Portuguese vocabulary from Africa, but I recall being told it was the other way around. Anybody know the definitive answer?

Second, I speak a little Welsh (I grew up in Wales), but could not find the word dygon in any of my references. It is possible that this is an ancient term, but this raised a flag for me. I would be interested to hear the source reference on that one.

Please don't take any of this as cynical - just a little skeptical!

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Jim McDougall
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-23-2003 22:29     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim McDougall   Click Here to Email Jim McDougall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wyvern,
On the 'dudgeon' :
"...the handle of a dagger, at one time made of boxwood root, called 'dudgeon wood', as Shakespeare says,
I see thee still
And on the blade and dudgeon gouts of blood, which was not so before.
-MacBeth ii, I
As indicating resentment or sulkiness, the word dudgeon comes from an old Welsh word, 'dygen', meaning malice."

- ref : Brewers Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, N.Y. Harpers Bros. n/d revised and enlarged edition of the original.Page 310.
I have a 2nd edition of the original which has no date, but is inscribed with Nov.11,1880 on the inner leaf.The original work was by Rev. E.Cobham Brewer.
I would imagine this is a term that has diffused or fallen out of use much the same as semantics of many of our archaic root words.

On 'assegai':
Ref: American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th ed. 2000
1. a light spear or lance, especially one with a short shaft and long blade for close combat, used by Bantu peoples of southern Africa.
2.A southern African tree (curtisia dentata) having wood used for making spears and lances.

In reviewing this application it appears the term 'assegai' is not known nor used by Zulu or associated tribes for the stabbing spear nor the tree. The Zulu term for curtisia dentata, at least the bark, which is used medicinally, is 'lahleni'. The Zulu term for the spear was 'iklwa', apparantly onomatopoeic word resembling the sucking sound it made being withdrawn from wound.
("The Anatomy of the Zulu Army", Ian Knight, London, 1995, p.110).
As you note, the term assegai does have early Arab origins, 'al zaghayah'= spear (Berber) and this term likely entered the Andalusian sphere, then Portuguese and French and Italian versions, all certainly via trade contact. The Portuguese colonial activity then carried the term to Africa, and was applied colloquially to the spears and trees used for them, or so it would seem.
Skepticism is good! Although the illustration here may not have applied as intended being sort of backwards, I sure learned something in rechecking this.
Thanks Wyvern !

Jeff, you got your Shakespeare down pretty good! One kind of funny story I always think of is of John Wayne in a brief attempt at the Bard.
After one scene in MacBeth, the director tells John he needs awe in his lines. Without missing a beat, Wayne drawls "... Awwwwh! Is this here a dagger I see before me!"

Best, Jim

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Wyvern
Member
posted 05-24-2003 00:01     Click Here to See the Profile for Wyvern     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Jim,

Thanks for posting the detailed information - I enjoy adding a little good natured skepticism. Your added comments that Assegai has an Arabic root make perfect sense.

An additional factor in the word's adoption may have been the presence of Arab trading colonies up and down the Eastern Coast of Africa. If I remember correctly there was heavy trade between Arabia and Africa - the Dhows would sail down the coast with one set of winds in one season and back up in the next season. (Can't remember what the winds were called or which seasons though).

I believe that this went on as far south as Zimbabwe. It was certainly going on further north - the place names are evidence of that (e.g. Dar-es-Salaam in Tanzania),

Just a thought!

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VANDOO
Senior Member
posted 05-24-2003 00:44     Click Here to See the Profile for VANDOO   Click Here to Email VANDOO     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WORDS CAN BE VERY INTERESTING NOW I UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS MENT WHEN I READ THAT SOMEONE WAS IN A HIGH STATE OF DUDGEON. I ALSO HAD A FAVORITE STORY TOLD IN ONE OF W.C. FIELDS MOVIES, HE LED ON HIS AUDIENCE WITH HIS STORY OF HOW HE WAS SURROUNDED BY NATIVES WITH DEADLY ASSEGAI, WHEN ASKED WHAT HAPPENED "HE SAID THEY KILLED ME!"

MANY SOCIETYS SELECTED CERTIAN TREES THAT FITTED THEIR NEEDS DUE TO MANY FACTORS SUCH AS HARDNESS, WEIGHT, ECT. NATIVE AMERICANS AND FIJI ISLANDERS BOTH MANIPULATED TREES TO FORM THE SHAPES TO MAKE CERTIAN TYPES OF CLUBS. SOME AMERICAN WOODLANDS TRIBES WERE SAID TO SHAPE TREE TRUNKS OR BRANCHES TO SERVE AS LIVING LANDMARKS, WARNINGS OR DIRECTIONS SUCH AS WHICH WAY TO GOOD WATER. PRIMATIVE PEOPLES ALL USED BIOTECKNOLOGY AS IT WAS THE MAJOR TECKNOLOGY AVAILABLE, EXCEPT FOR STONE TOOLS AND FIRE MAKEING. TO MAKE FIRE YOU NEEDED TO KNOW WHAT KINDS OF WOODS AND TINDER TO USE.

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