Toubou knife for your comment, from Chuck

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Author	Topic: Toubou knife for your comment, from Chuck
Lee Jones EEWRS Staff	posted 01-23-2002 04:47 Received for posting from Chuck: IP: Logged
M ELEY Senior Member	posted 01-23-2002 19:21 VERY NICE PIECE! I ALWAYS WONDERED IF THE HILTS WERE TRULY USED AS CLAIMED TO PUNCTURE THE SKULL OF AN OPPONENT? DOES THIS SPECIMEN HAVE THE WEIGHT TO PRODUCE SUCH A RESULT?? IP: Logged
ChuckT Member	posted 01-25-2002 17:49 These pieces seem much too light weight to do any damage to a human skull. I'm fairly strong, but if I was going to peirce someones skull, I'd find a rock. Does anyone know an age/provenence on these? PS. I also have one w/o the leather on the hilt. I'll photograph and post it soon. IP: Logged
Conogre Senior Member	posted 01-25-2002 18:03 The skull punturing was probably a retailing prome by the same guy who came up with the kampilon spike theorygrin...there have been a couple of other threads dealing with these, and apparently they have been around for 100+, but are still being made,used and obviously sold. I've also run accross two that seem identical only sword sized, but no real information ha popped up on the big ones yet. IP: Logged
RASFranzen Senior Member	posted 01-26-2002 09:18 Chuck, we had a long thread on these a few months back. (If you can´t find it, I will bump it up for you) I think, that your knife might differ from those on that thread by not having a central ridge, or does it have one that I overlook? Maybe your specimen is older? What is the sheath made from? IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 01-26-2002 11:55 It almost looks like a central depression, a very shallow groove, one could say. Sometimes a gilee will be like this, and other African blades, too. Piercing a skull may be going a bit far, especially since the spike isn't sharp (ever, so far as I know), but you sure wouldn't want hit with it, and especially not on "exposed" (close to the surface) bone. What's that weapon (developed, I've heard, by a Japanese police agent) that's a short rod with the ends protruding from the hand for poking pressure points and bones with? kinda like that with a blade on the other end. IP: Logged
ChuckT Member	posted 01-28-2002 18:13 I've twice tried to post a reply to this thread, but it doesn't seem to take. Maybe this will work... IP: Logged
ChuckT Member	posted 01-28-2002 18:19 I think I figured it out... 1) The sheath is made of a smooth leather, I have no idea what type. 2) Each blade is slightly different. The larger one has a slight depression, not a ridge. The smaller of the two has a raised ridge but it is offset from the center. If you turn the blade the ridge is on opposite edges, if that makes sense. I have one other dagger w/ no leather on the hilt; this one has a raised ridge in the center but the blade is "bellied" about 2/3 of the way to the tip, either by design or by honing. I will post it soon. IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 01-28-2002 18:38 I see that off-center affect now that you mention it. Such is pretty common on double-edged African blades, and though I'd be very hesitant to call that butt a blade, it is obviously styled after one. I'm going to go look at my scorpion that has a butt like that and see if it's got offset ridges. It does have. Not exactly the same sort of ofsetting, but offset, and the bladelike shaft is offset at its very base, as well. [This message has been edited by tom hyle (edited 01-28-2002).] IP: Logged
RASFranzen Senior Member	posted 01-29-2002 05:03 Chuck, I have bumped up the old Tebu dagger thread for you. As I was comparing the daggers there and yours, I wonder, whether your knives are older and whether at least the 2nd specimen of yours might have started out as a european blade one day? Or is it maybe a local variation? IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 01-29-2002 06:47 Also, the pointed butt could be for tool use in breaking things up, and other tasks you don't want to bang up or bend the blade on. Do these people traditionally carry knife and dagger, or is the dagger also a work knife? I haven't seen European blades to have the offset ridge affect, though kinzhals often have offset fullers (other blades sometimes do, too), and may sometimes show a slight offsetting of the centerline. A slight offsetting is often incidental to the forging and grinding processes; it can be difficult to learn to eliminate this from your work, in fact. The left and right bevels are (unless the maker is ambidextrous) made be different processes, but the left bevel on one face and the left bevel on the other face are made by the same process (way of holding, hammer strikes, etc.). Newer N American daggers not uncommonly have an asymetrical ridgeline; closer to one edge, but it is closer to the same edge on both "flats", so that they have a stronger and a weaker edge (the weaker one being finer). This probably derives from the axelike edge on the clip of some bowies (particularly, but not exclusively, those designed for edge-up use). [This message has been edited by tom hyle (edited 01-29-2002).] IP: Logged
ChuckT Member	posted 01-29-2002 21:11 Ras, I have no idea as to the age of these, I would love it if someone could hazard a guess. I was told by the old lady who sold them to me that they were mid 19th C., but that was the date she assigned to the Jambiya that you folks feel is somewhat older. Apparently they were part of a lot that came to her from the family of a British soldier that brought them back from Africa, along with a bloodletting fleam which is either Victorian or Queen Anne, depending on which Her Majesty Rodgers was reffering to. By the way, what is the thread you posted listed as? I'm looking but can't see it. You know us newbies...have to lead us by the hand everywhere. Thanks Chuck [This message has been edited by Lee Jones (edited 02-01-2002).] IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 01-29-2002 21:40 That's "Tebu dagger from Goa". I've brought it to the top. IP: Logged
VANDOO Senior Member	posted 01-29-2002 23:15 I HAVE FIVE EXAMPLES OF THIS DAGGER AND ONE OF THE LARGER SWORD TYPES. THE IRON POMMEL ON MY CURRENT EXAMPLES AND ALL I HAVE SEEN AND HANDLED OVER THE YEARS HAVE SHOWN NO EVIDENCE OF BEING USED FOR HAMMERING OR STRIKEING. AT ONE TIME I THOUGHT THAT PERHAPS THE IRON WAS USED WITH A CHUNK OF FLINT TO STRIKE SPARKS AND MAKE FIRE. (EVEN A SWISS ARMY KNIFE CAN'T DO THAT ) BUT ON INSPECTING SEVERAL EXAMPLES I COULD SEE NO EVIDENCE OF THIS. THEY ALL APPEAR TO BE MADE THE SAME AND NONE SHOW WEAR FROM USE. SO I SUSPECT THAT THEY SERVE AS A MAGICAL PROTECTIVE TAILSMAN. IRON IS SUPPOSED TO PROTECT FROM SOMETHING CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT PERHAPS THE EVIL EYE. IS THE IRON OF THE POMMEL SOFTER AND OF A DIFFERENT COMPOSITION FROM THE BLADE? I HAVE SCRATCHED THE POMMEL AND THE BLADE ON ONE AND THE POMMEL DOES SEEM SOFTER. SOME OF MINE HAVE KIND OF A GREY PATINA OR PERHAPS THE IRON ITSELF IS GREY. THE WAY IT HAS BEEN SHAPED AND HAMMERED FLAT ALONG THE EDGE ON ALL EXAMPLES IS SIGNIFICENT AND TRADITIONAL.PERHAPS SOMEONE KNOWS? A METALURGIST OR A ANTHROPOLIGIST OR A WITCH DOCTOR WOULD PROBABLY HAVE THE BEST INFORMATION.I AM SENDING PICTURES OF 4 OF MY KNIVES. THE LARGEST IS 18 3/8 LONG OUT OF THE SHEATH ITS BLADE TAPERS DOWN TO MORE OF A NEEDLE POINT AND HAS BETTER DESIGNS IN THE BLADE THE SHEITH IS NEWER THAN THE KNIFE BUT IS STILL OLD ENOUGH TO HAVE THE FISH TAIL THAT WAS TRADITIONAL ON MOST OLDER EXAMPLES. THE GRIP IS SNAKESKIN AND IS WORN WHERE IT RUBBED AGAINST THE WEARER OVER THE YEARS IT'S TAG SAID IT WAS CIRCA 1850 AND WAS FROM THE TUBA TRIBE.THE OTHER ONE WITH THE FISH TAIL ON THE SCABBARD IS 12 INCHES LONG THE SCABBARD AND BAND IS SNAKE SKIN IT IS ALSO A OLDER ONE SAID TO HAVE BEEN COLLECTED IN SIERRA LEONE IT IS BEAUTIFULY MADE. THE OTHER TWO ARE MORE RECENT BUT PROBABLY OLDER THAN ME(THAT MAKES THEM OFFICIALLY ANTIQUES ). ONE OF THEM HAS SNAKE SKIN AND IS 12 1/4 INCH AND THE OTHER IS 13 1/2 LONG NO TRADITIONAL FISH TAILS ON THE SHEATHS. [This message has been edited by Lee Jones (edited 02-09-2002).] IP: Logged
ChuckT Member	posted 01-30-2002 07:21 Vandoo...The one toubou I spoke of that has no leather on the hilt seems to be made of one solid piece of iron( ? ); I can see no seem anywhere. There is evidence of hammering to to form the round bar between the blade and the pommel. None of my toubous shows any sirn of being used to stike anything either...no nicks or flattening on the pommels at all. Anyone have a date on these? IP: Logged
tom hyle Senior Member	posted 01-30-2002 07:53 It would make sense to harden the blade (either by hammer or thermally) while leaving the tang and/or pommel soft. In a magical context this exposed piece of iron might well be symbollic of a blade, and thus protective, while its blunt edges offer no harm to the wearer. [This message has been edited by tom hyle (edited 01-30-2002).] IP: Logged
RASFranzen Senior Member	posted 01-30-2002 11:52 Chuck, actually what you said about the origins is quite interesting as british troops never really got into the Tebu/Tubu/Toubou area if you discount a few Desert Rats who might have gotten near there in WWII. So it just could be, that your pieces might have been collected by one of the british explorers. Denham and Clapperton were there in the 1820, later e.g. Boyd Alexander. As to the pommel, I do not believe, that it has much practical use. From my experience it helps with certain grips on the dagger though. The Tuareg as neighbours of the Tebu though do not like to touch iron due to local folk beliefs.. IP: Logged
ChuckT Member	posted 01-30-2002 18:56 Ras.. Well, that certainly raises some romantic possibilities. I got thesed in Margate, GB. Does anyone know where Denham, Clapperton et.al. might have lived in Britain after they returned? You folks have dated the Jambiya as circa late 18th-early 19th C. which would put it in the area chronologically with the 1820 date you mentioned. I'm going to google to check into those boys lives. More later. IP: Logged
Lee Jones EEWRS Staff	posted 02-02-2002 11:15 Received for posting from Chuck: IP: Logged
Lee Jones EEWRS Staff	posted 02-02-2002 11:34 While many of these knives, such as the naked blade posted just above, are obviously forged, I have seen small examples being made in a market in northern Niger out of sheet metal. I suspect Chuck's blade is a fairly typical example which has somehow come to lose the leather parts. IP: Logged
VANDOO Senior Member	posted 02-09-2002 15:52 I ADDED SOME PICTURES AND TEXT TO MY PREVIOUS POST SO AM BRINGING THIS TO THE TOP SO IT WON'T GET OVERLOOKED. SEE ABOVE POST IP: Logged
Conogre Senior Member	posted 02-09-2002 19:50 Vandoo, since you have one, any ideas on the shortsword sized piece? The ones I've seen all seem to be made to be used, and after finding the pic of the tobu bound to the scabbard of a takouba, I almost suspect they are prestige fighting weapons, one step removed from a takouba itself. As to the pommels, many have a ridge, slightly offset on each side, and it's my understanding that the men are heavily hooded/vieled as prevention from evil magic, while it's not uncommon to find the women unvieled...superstition to the point of religion to live by, at least as potent as voodoo. IP: Logged
VANDOO Senior Member	posted 02-09-2002 23:02 I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE BELIEFS IN MAGIC OF THE BLUE MEN OF THE DESERT (TUREG). THEY DO LIKE TO KEEP COVERED UP BUT PERHAPS IT IS FOR PROTECTION FROM THE SUN AND SAND. THE WAY TO TELL WOULD BE IF THEY KEEP COVERED UP WHEN THEY SIT AROUND CAMP IN THE EVENINGS(WHEN MOST PEOPLE THINK EVIL IS THE STRONGEST)IF THEY UNCOVER AND RELAX AND TALK AROUND THE FIRE I WOULD SAY IT'S PROBABLY NOT MAGICAL PROTECTION BUT TRADITIONAL DRESS. THE SHORT SWORD OR DAGGERS MAY HAVE BEEN USED WHEN THEY WERE ON FOOT, PERHAPS ALONG WITH THE SWORD OR JUST FOR CLOSE WORK? ANOTHER POSSIBILITY WOULD BE THAT THEIR CUSTOMS WOULD BE AGAINST USING THE SWORD TO SETTLE CERTIAN DISPUTES AND THE DAGGER WAS THE REQUIRED WEAPON. I JUST HAVEN'T STUDIED UP ON THOSE WARRIORS, ITS A SHAME TO NEGLECT THEM SO, AS THEY ARE GREAT RASCALS AH!!YES SPECULATION AT IT'S FINEST! IP: Logged

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