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Author Topic:   Please help me identify this sword.
Scott Bubar
Senior Member
posted 09-16-2000 11:54     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Bubar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm still thinking about the eagle thing, but meanwhile, I came across this:

quote:
1030. DUTCH EAST INDIA COMPANY CUTLASS WITH BRASS HILT AND POMMEL. The blade is stamped on both sides with an "A" and the logo VOC, and dated 1780. VOC monogram is for "Vereenigde Ootindishe Compagnie," Dutch East India Company, and the "A" for the Amsterdam office. Est. $3,000-4,000.

From this page at the Maine_Antique_Digest site.

[This message has been edited by Scott Bubar (edited 09-16-2000).]

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Mark Bowditch
Senior Member
posted 09-22-2000 14:22     Click Here to See the Profile for Mark Bowditch   Click Here to Email Mark Bowditch     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
<>

I think its a $100 bill ...

But seriously, any idea where it is from? It could just be a Westerner's idea of an exotic design for a letter opener, though after seeing my grandmother's wooden barong, it could be a copy of something historical.

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blastr2
Member
posted 11-17-2000 00:17     Click Here to See the Profile for blastr2   Click Here to Email blastr2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just ran across another gryphon pommel sword that matches the style of the "Dutch" sword that was discussed near the bottom of page two of this forum. This additional variation was recently sold on eBay (Item #493668241)and the images are still available at the site. I contacted the seller to se if he knows anything about the origin of the sword and will pass on any information that is provided. This sword differs from the one that I used to own in that it has a very unusual guard in the form of a bird in flight and does not have any similarity to any Dutch design that I have seen.

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blastr2
Member
posted 11-19-2000 19:19     Click Here to See the Profile for blastr2   Click Here to Email blastr2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I got a note back from the eBay seller of the latest grypon pommel sword. Unfortunately, he didn't have any information regarding its origin.

Ken

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ruel
Senior Member
posted 11-19-2000 23:40     Click Here to See the Profile for ruel   Click Here to Email ruel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for trying, blastr2. I've now received the dagger; simple iron-casting, not meant for combat and probably not for public ceremony either. I'm starting to think it's purely European and probably Masonic, maybe even an early forerunner of the now-popular athame.

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Jan
Member
posted 12-02-2000 05:34     Click Here to See the Profile for Jan   Click Here to Email Jan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, "SHAVER COOL" is back...
Browsing around the craft and antique shops of Yogyakarta/Java today, I have just found another blade stamped with "Shaver Cool, VOC , Batavia" - definitely looked like a company logo on this one.
I have no experience with blades like these, but it definitely looked like a replica to me, way too new and shiny. Also, the dealer immediately remarked something like "oh, but that one is not old" when I asked to see it. No gryphon pommel, but a cast-iron(?) lions head. No engravings on hand guard, no achor either. General appearance in shape and of scabbard was very much like Mickeys (that's what made me ask to see it). At half lenght of the blade was an engraved floral pattern, the reverse side of the blade had the VOC logo and that sailing ship (front view) on it.
Handle material looked like plastic to me, but could of course not try any red hot needle testing...

Nothing knew to learn from this, I guess, just thought to let the "Friends of SHAVER COOL" on this forum know.

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Scott Bubar
Senior Member
posted 12-02-2000 08:59     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Bubar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, Jan.

I've been wondering.

What if the eagle is Garuda?

Images by Sammy Kanadi, from Flags_of_the_World, posted here for informational, non-commercial purposes only.

[This message has been edited by Scott Bubar (edited 12-02-2000).]

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blastr2
Member
posted 12-14-2000 01:04     Click Here to See the Profile for blastr2   Click Here to Email blastr2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scott,

I think you must be correct about the Garuda. The beak of the "eagle" on Mikey's sword has a crest above the beak that matches the crest of the Garuda shown in the flag. The feathers at the back of the head also form a tuft, similar to the tufted feathers on both Mikey's sword and the one that I had. Although I don't see any teeth in the garuda of the flag, other images of Garuda often show a creature with a beak and teeth.

Ken

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Jan
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posted 12-14-2000 08:51     Click Here to See the Profile for Jan   Click Here to Email Jan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would neither support nor reject the Garuda theory right now, but maybe we should get a more precise definition here:
Are we talking about the Garuda in general (as a sort of "mythical animal"), or about the Garuda in the coat of arms of the Republic of Indonesia, as shown in the flags posted by Scott?
The latter one is a highly stylized symbol: Apart from wearing the Pancasila emblem, this Garuda is also following other strict definitions. 17 feathers on each wing, 8 feathers on the tail, 45 feathers on the neck. It is a symbol of the date of the Indonesian proclamation of independence, made by Soekarno on the 17 / 8 / (19)45.
We might assume that a Garuda hilt made in Indonesia AFTER this date would comply to this standard. But would the blade and handguard wear the emblem of the colonial V.O.C. then?
A too detailed comparison of the hilt to the flags above seems to be ruled out by this, unless we are thinking of an imitation made in the Republic of Indonesia and resembling an older blade (the Dutch naval officers sword mentioned before?)
Mickey, would you mind counting those neck feathers on your handle?

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blastr2
Member
posted 12-16-2000 00:07     Click Here to See the Profile for blastr2   Click Here to Email blastr2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I suspect that the Garuda of the coat of arms of the Republic of Indonesia and the eagle head of Mikey's sword (and variations) are derivative of a common precursor form. The eagle head pommel variations that we have seen have striking similarities to one another but also distinct differences. In general, their style is somewhat less westerninzed than the Garuda of the coat of arms. The "Dutch" sword that I owned is no longer in my possession but from photographs that I have, clearly has much more than 45 neck feathers.

[This message has been edited by blastr2 (edited 12-16-2000).]

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Mikey
Member
posted 12-18-2000 17:03     Click Here to See the Profile for Mikey   Click Here to Email Mikey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi everyone thank's for keeping this sword in mind.
As far as feathers, on the neck, I count about 26 on what I would consider the neck. Going down the handle there is about 36 on each side and 8 going straight down the middle of the handle.

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Scott Bubar
Senior Member
posted 05-05-2001 16:49     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Bubar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shaver Cool strikes again:

Shaver_Cool_VOC

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Rick
EEWRS Staff
posted 05-05-2001 22:26     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick   Click Here to Email Rick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome back my friends to the thread that never ends
Do we have any pictures of this latest V.O.C. sword?

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Scott Bubar
Senior Member
posted 11-22-2002 20:07     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Bubar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The thread that never ends rises once again!

The consensus here seems to have been that the posted swords are probably tourist or decorative items.

However, I've always felt it likely that there was an 'actual' sword or swords upon which they were modeled. But I've never been able to find the missing link.

My ears perked up when M ELEY recently posted on Indonesian(?) officers'(?) swords, with eagle head pommels, c. 1940 on Andrew's What_is_this? thread. When I asked for an image, he was kind enough to supply the following links:

www.oldswords.com/MyPictures/11004-THUMB-202thumb.jpg

www.oldswords.com/MyPictures/11004-HILTS-202grip.jpg

www.oldswords.com/MyPictures/11004-MISC1-202all.jpg

Whether this is the missing link or not, I do not know.

But it certainly adds a new wrinkle to the story, and I felt it was worthwhile reviving this discussion.

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blastr3
Member
posted 11-27-2002 19:37     Click Here to See the Profile for blastr3     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scott,

It's great to see that the thread continues. The current sword has a different guard than the one I had but has a very similar cast pommel. I saw another sword with the "Garuda" head and a flying eagle guard on ebay about a year ago but the seller didn't know anything about the origin.

For a good chuckle, take a look at another "Fine Engraved Dutch VOC Sword" at: http://www.vintage-prints.com/arms/VOCSWORD.htm

Ken

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jmdeur
Member
posted 01-23-2003 00:24     Click Here to See the Profile for jmdeur   Click Here to Email jmdeur     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hi - another pair of these swords are up for sale on ebay - having talked with the dealer, have learned that the blades are marked with "cool," "shaver," "voc," etc. the scans that he has sent show a sword that looks very much like the one that started this marathon thread. if you have $1500 or so to spare, you can probably still get one - meanwhile, i'm interested in learning more about dutch naval swords and would really appreciate finding out if there are any books, etc. currently available on the topic (and where they might be obtained). thanks.

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VANDOO
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posted 01-23-2003 01:17     Click Here to See the Profile for VANDOO   Click Here to Email VANDOO     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scott I saw the officers on Ambon island "Moluccas" wearing swords very much like the one you pictured. They were rehersing for the indonesian independence celebrations and were in formation so I didn't get a very good look, but I suspect that they are military dress swords perhaps different ones for different divisions within the military.

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Scott Bubar
Senior Member
posted 02-01-2003 08:04     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Bubar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ken the 1748 date tickles my memory somehow, perhaps something having to do with Ceylonese kastanes?

I suppose I'm a bit late to get a look at those ebay swords?

Vandoo--thanks for that info ... I suspect we might be getting "warm" with the military thing.

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blastr3
Member
posted 02-21-2003 20:51     Click Here to See the Profile for blastr3     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scott: Sorry but I didn't save any of the eBay pictures. I tried to find a tie-in with the 1748 date but struck out.

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Jim McDougall
EEWRS Staff
posted 02-23-2003 22:52     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim McDougall   Click Here to Email Jim McDougall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This thread definitely will end up in the Forum hall of fame!! or the Smithsonian! This has got to be the longest running one I know of on any forum.
I have always considered the Dutch East India VOC blades extremely interesting, and would like to find a good example one of these days. It seems like the date 1768 is one that appears occasionally on these blades, especially those found on kastanes.
Jim

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Rick
EEWRS Staff
posted 03-03-2003 15:08     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick   Click Here to Email Rick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here we go again !

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20272&item=2162939759

Have at it Men!

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blastr3
Member
posted 03-18-2003 18:20     Click Here to See the Profile for blastr3     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another great example is currently listed on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2164945811&category=13957
The seller reports that he bought it in Jakarta. I wonder if the engravings on the blade ("Jalesveva" and "Jayamahe")provide additional clues?
Ken

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blastr3
Member
posted 03-18-2003 19:12     Click Here to See the Profile for blastr3     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I found a few websites regarding the Jalesveva and Jayamahe Monument: http://www.info-indo.com/java/surabayacitytour7.htm and a picture of a late 19th century sailing ship: http://www.indonesiamedia.com/rubrik/misc/kridewaruci.htm
Ken

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Rick
EEWRS Staff
posted 03-19-2003 18:25     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick   Click Here to Email Rick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
blastr3,This:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2164945811&category=13957

is the heaviest, most utilitarian looking example of this sword that I have seen so far in this thread ; interesting blade configuration too . The blade looks to me as if it is plated which may rule it out as being of the VOC period .
The markings on the blade suggest to me that it may have been of native manufacture.
This particular example certainly seems to be a robust piece while many of the others seen so far have not shared this aspect.

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blastr3
Member
posted 03-20-2003 15:54     Click Here to See the Profile for blastr3     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree that none of these swords date to the VOC period. This current eBay sword has a cast guard that is based on that of the model 1880 Dutch naval sword (see my posting to this forum on 09-07-2000). The guard and pommel appear to be of high quality. However, the engraving on the blade appears crude. (Possibly not origninal?

Ken

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Jan
Member
posted 03-21-2003 11:42     Click Here to See the Profile for Jan   Click Here to Email Jan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gentlemen,
"Jalesveva Jayamahe" is the motto in the coat-of-arms of the Indonesian navy, TNI-AL.
http://home.indo.net.id/~duta/hp2.htm
Indonesian translation for this (Sanskrit?)is given as "Di laut kita (ber)jaya" = At sea we are victorious.
Another picture of the blade shows an engraving resembling the coat-of-arms of the Republik of Indonesia - a Garuda holding a shield with 5 symbols and a banner in its talons.
These engravings were apparently made after independence of the Republic of Indonesia in 1945.


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Scott Bubar
Senior Member
posted 03-23-2003 13:57     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Bubar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would very much like to see a picture of the current Indonesian naval officer's sword.

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Jan
Member
posted 03-24-2003 04:46     Click Here to See the Profile for Jan   Click Here to Email Jan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scott,
same for me.
The Indonesian description of the Jalesveva Jayamahe Monument in one of the links above mentions that the statue shows an Indonesian navy officer holding a "pedang kehormatan" = "sword of honor" in his left hand.
I havenīt been able to find a picture of these swords on the net, but they are mentioned in some Indonesian online resource on 1968 procedures for military medals - whoever gets awarded the navy medal "Bintang Jalasena" is also entitled to one of their "pedang kehormatan":
http://www.theceli.com/dokumen/produk/1968/14-1968.htm
The sword is mentioned in "Pasal 8,(3)", the text says this sword specified/pictured in the "lampiran" = appendix to this law.
Well, that appendix apparently hasnīt made it online yet...

[This message has been edited by Jan (edited 03-24-2003).]

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Victor Hansen
Member
posted 10-17-2003 16:03     Click Here to See the Profile for Victor Hansen   Click Here to Email Victor Hansen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi all, I was directed to this message area after posting a question about the origins of a sword. It seems to appear quite old and I am not sure of its true origins and it also hsa the word, marked into the blade, which to me looks like it says 'RATAVIA'. It also has some decorative artwork along the blade and the image of a ship. I also was curious to know if it has anything to do with the Batavia shipwreak.

It is a fairly short sword, measuring 83 cms in its entire length. It has a slightly curved blade sharp on only one edge. The guard is quite thin. It also has a leather sheath and what looks like brass furniture. It appears to have a bone handle and the pommel end of the sword is formed in the shape of a bird's head. Some have suggested it an eagle head others have even suggested it is a cockatrice (you all know what a cockatrice is, dont you?). Anyway it is made out of the same brass type material. Anyway here are the photos of the sword:

http://www.geocities.com/wyrmspleen

Excuse the poor quality of the images, but it looks like you have seen the same type of sword before anyway.

Regards,
Victor.

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Mark Bowditch
Senior Member
posted 10-17-2003 16:23     Click Here to See the Profile for Mark Bowditch   Click Here to Email Mark Bowditch     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shaver Cool lives!

Seriously, though, if you were able to get through this record-breaking thread, you'd see how much fun we had with these swords, and what a challenge it was to figure out what they are. (By the way, did we ever figure it out?)

"Ratavia" is indeed "Batavia," but refers to the Dutch trading colony on Java island in present-day Indonesia (its the city now called Jakarta), not to the particular ship of that name. These swords were apparently issued to officers of VOC (Dutch East India Company) ships. You can see the VOC logo in the first photo. Some even have names and/or dates stamped on them (for example, "Shaver Cool," which IMHO was someone's name but we never pinned it down -- it might have been a ship's name).

Beyond the rather thorough discussion that is already on this thread, I don't have anything to add.

[This message has been edited by Mark Bowditch (edited 10-17-2003).]

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Redders
Member
posted 02-28-2005 00:37     Click Here to See the Profile for Redders   Click Here to Email Redders     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hello all,
i have been in possession of a pair of swords for some years now and have always wondered about their origin.
The swords are almost exactly alike to the ones described by Mikey, with a few subtle differences.
The blade is inscibed with Shaver Cool Voc, as well as the VOC stamp, and on the other side there is a frontal view of a ship.There is no mention of Botavia.
The guard is also marked with the VOC stamp and has a floral design cut into it. The handle i beleive to be ivory, as it has taken on a yellowy, brown color.
My swords also come with sheaths made of leather with brass furnishings.
The main differences i would note are there is less detail on the gryphons head and feathers. The blade is also less curved and has a more pointed tip.
I will try put up some photos for you all to have alook at and compare.
I have found this entire thread very interesting and would love to get to the bottom of it. The fact there are similar versions of this sword lead nme to beleive there must be an original somewhere.
I hope there are some of you out there still interested and that the mystery of shaver cool can someday be solved.

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Andrew
EEWRS Staff
posted 03-16-2005 01:11     Click Here to See the Profile for Andrew   Click Here to Email Andrew     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Redders, these fora are closed. Try asking your question with a link to this thread here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/

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